EP271: Bringing up Teens – author of Not a Survival Guide – Nicole Howes

Natalie Cassidy 0:02:04 Hello and welcome to Life with Nat. I hope everybody is having a fantastic week. Really excited today. Something that we should talk about more. I sort of bang on about it a little bit, but teens, the teenage years, and how we feel as parents regarding teens. And a little while ago, you might remember me mentioning a book called Not a Survival Guide by Nicole Howells. And anyway, we've been in touch and she joins me today and we are going to have a lovely chat and we've got some great questions from you listeners. So So let's get on with it. How are you?

Nicole Howes 0:02:57 Yeah, I'm really good, thank you. How are you?

Natalie Cassidy 0:02:58 Yeah, really good, thank you. Not too bad at all.

Nicole Howes 0:03:01 Good.

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:01 I've got my Nana cardigan on.

Nicole Howes 0:03:03 I mean, it looks cosy. It's right for this time of year, right?

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:06 I was cold this morning.

Nicole Howes 0:03:07 So cold.

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:08 Yeah, I was freezing. We're turning very European now, aren't we?

Nicole Howes 0:03:13 Well, I've got my cup of tea, so I guess—

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:16 Perfect.

Nicole Howes 0:03:16 It's the way to do it, right?

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:17 Perfect. I've been leafing through your book over the last few days, Yeah. And honestly, it's really good.

Nicole Howes 0:03:26 Thank you.

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:27 Genuinely, I've found it— I think someone says it's quite raw, and it is quite raw. I've found myself quite emotional at times.

Nicole Howes 0:03:36 Yeah, I think I was certainly in a moment when I wrote it, so I think that possibly is what comes through.

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:41 So sometimes you get kind of self-helpy books, if you like, that are a little bit deep and a little bit condescending, and I just think it's really on the nose. You feel like you're talking to a mate. It's very, you know, I really, really urge people to buy it if you've got a teen. I really mean that. I really am enjoying it. It's great.

Nicole Howes 0:03:59 Thanks, Nat. I appreciate that. It's brilliant. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:02 When did you, when did you write it?

Nicole Howes 0:04:03 So, um, probably a couple of years ago now. It was published beginning of last year.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:09 Yeah.

Nicole Howes 0:04:10 Um, but yeah, it was about the time where my, one of my children was heading up to high school themselves, and I just felt completely overwhelmed and unsupported, not necessarily in home life, but definitely in society. We talk a lot about toddlers, baby groups, all of that stuff, but actually, when you get to teen years, I think you're expected just to have it all together. Mm-hmm. And it was probably the most out of control during parenting at that stage that I'd ever felt. I'd always felt like I had my ducks in a row, if you like, and then the wheels just felt like they were coming off.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:46 How old are the children now, if you don't mind asking? 13 and 15. Oh, they've— okay, so you're in the midst of it. So I've got Joni, who's 10, and Eliza will be 16 in a couple of weeks.

Nicole Howes 0:04:55 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:56 I'm just feeling now the change in Joni, very, very slowly, but I feel our summer holiday was so lovely, and she still felt quite young. And going back to school, even, what's it been now? 6 days, I've noticed a real change already. That year 6 sassiness, she's been quite rude. But you know that the change is on the horizon.

Nicole Howes 0:05:27 And second time round, you're probably more heightened to it as well. Yeah. So, you're kind of ready for it, and you're like, oh, there it is. I see those little tiny things that probably the first time would've just passed you by.

Natalie Cassidy 0:05:38 I think so. And I think you just put it down to, oh, they're tired, or, oh, they were just being a bit cheeky. But it is, it's the hormonal change and those hormonal imbalances that I can see now.

Nicole Howes 0:05:49 Mm.

Natalie Cassidy 0:05:49 We've had lots and lots of messages, as you know, 'cause we've got a little group going, so we can go through all of those. Some of the things you write within the book, you, you spoke to friends, didn't you, around the table? Which I really like.

Nicole Howes 0:06:05 Yeah, so friends and other people, other parents of teenagers, and some experts, and yeah, we got around the table and just had a good, open, heart-to-heart chat, because like I said, I don't think that really happens so much at the teenage years.

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:17 I don't, and I think you become a bit disconnected with the school life, don't you? Yeah. Don't you? I think that's quite a big thing. At primary school, you're in the playground, you're talking to the mums, you go for a coffee after the school run, you're sort of within their life a lot more, and in that sort of school bubble, Whereas secondary school, off they go, and you're not as connected. And maybe that's why you, I don't know about you, but I feel like those conversations don't happen as much, because you're not in that school playground.

Nicole Howes 0:06:47 Yeah, I think it's a huge part of it. And I think particularly mums, a lot of them feel a responsibility to be back in working life by that point. So you don't have as much time to be spending those hours chatting with people, and kind of working out where other people are at. And I think it's very easy to think that everyone else has it all sewn up. So to actually address a conversation of actually, I'm really struggling at this point, or I'm finding it hard letting go, or I'm just feeling like they're drifting away from me. Sometimes they can feel a bit silly, I guess, those conversations.

Natalie Cassidy 0:07:17 Yeah, I think so. I wanted to ask you a few things as a parent. Of course. And whilst I've got you here, I may as well get my, uh, money's worth, should we say. Not money's worth, you know what I mean.

Nicole Howes 0:07:27 Let's see what we can do.

Natalie Cassidy 0:07:28 Eliza is so grown up. She's a really, really good girl. And I never thought in a million years I would've parented the way I have in the last 2 years.

Nicole Howes 0:07:44 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:07:45 It really shocks me. And when I say shocked, I mean that Eliza has a boyfriend now and is very happy. And the way I've dealt with that, I thought I would freak out about it and be, you know, really strict about her seeing him and those sorts of things. But actually, I think I'm quite a chilled-out person, and I think the reason I've gone that way is because it's not anything for a quiet life whatsoever. But I think teens have so much to deal with that if they can find some happiness, you should help support them with that happiness. And I wondered what you thought about that.

Nicole Howes 0:08:25 No, I agree with you completely, especially with wading into relationships. I think it's a really easy thing as a parent because quite often you can see where things are maybe a red flag or things might be going wrong, or you're worried about them being hurt, or distracted from study, or whatever it is, that you have your own kind of viewpoint on it, which we've lived those years. Mm-hmm. But we have to let them live them themselves, so that when they come out of it, they know how to deal with it. They need to be able to make mistakes.

Nicole Howes 0:08:52 They need to be able to have these moments of heartbreak. And young love, particularly, it runs so hot and fast, doesn't it? And then can just be gone, like, straight away. Mm-hmm. But those moments are there to be cherished, and, I think if parents can support their teens rather than kind of like holding them tighter, they can be there, they know they're there if they need them, then that fosters much nicer relationships for all, all parties involved as they go forward.

Nicole Howes 0:09:18 Because this is a real learning phase, and they're still under our eye, they're still under our house, we can still keep an eye on and support them and kind of nudge them in the right direction. But it's so important to let them have that freedom as well. And you're absolutely bang on with the happiness. I think the freedom does help to support their mental wellbeing as well.

Natalie Cassidy 0:09:41 I think I'm strict in some areas.

Natalie Cassidy 0:09:43 You know, Eliza will always say to me, oh, you, the other day, and you know I'm very honest on here, but the other day I went into her room. We'd discussed the night before maybe going to the gym together and sorting out the membership or whatever it was. And In the morning, I went into her room, and it was Saturday morning, about quarter to 10 or something. She wasn't up yet. And I said, oh, I sort of woke her up, but because I was up and about, and you know, when you have a morning where you're doing stuff, and I said, right, well, I, I don't know about the gym.

Natalie Cassidy 0:10:12 I'm not sure if we're gonna do that, but why don't you come on a walk with me now? And she just went, oh, well, just give us a second. And it turned into a blazing argument because she said, you've just come in, I'm not awake yet, and you're just talking at me, and I'm not ready for it. And afterwards, although I thought she was a bit rude to me. So I said, I don't think you need to talk to me like that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:10:30 But afterwards I sat down and I thought about it, and I thought, I get pissed off if I've just woken up and someone's talking at me, you know?

Nicole Howes 0:10:40 Yeah, 100%. And I think that shows through a lot on family holidays. So I think as parents, we've paid for it, we've booked it, we've planned it, we've done everything, and then we have a kind of an itinerary in our heads, but we don't always communicate that very well to our teenagers. So a lot of the time when teenagers are said to be moody on holidays, we hear that a lot, like, oh, they were a nightmare, they were moody, they didn't want to do anything.

Nicole Howes 0:11:03 A lot of that is down to the lack of communication. Mm-hmm. Of giving them enough warning, letting them know what the next day ahead is looking like, giving them some space. At the end of the day, with holidays or even on a weekend, we might remove unintentionally a lot of choice from our teenagers. But this is an age where they have to have that kind of autonomy to be able to do their own thing and like make their decisions.

Nicole Howes 0:11:26 And, you know, it's not about them going along with what we want all the time and like mollycoddling them either, but a little bit of like, like you clearly have, like that two-way conversation and respect. Like sometimes it will be a bit of an argument or a lock of horns, but that's okay. Like we're adults, we can get through that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:43 Yeah, but there's another part of me, so we can have a debate here. When you say about letting them, you know, go have their freedom and autonomy, I think They're young, they're living under our roof.

Nicole Howes 0:11:54 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:55 Like, what you're talking about? Have some respect. You know, have some respect. You're gonna do what I'm telling you to do. You're not living on your own yet. You know, you've got a lifetime of, you know, you're still at school.

Nicole Howes 0:12:06 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:12:07 How do you, how do you—

Nicole Howes 0:12:08 I totally, I'm there with you, but I do think that picking your battles is really healthy, because I picture it like I have a certain amount of tokens to give.

Nicole Howes 0:12:17 So I have a certain amount of times that I can say to them, I need you to do this, this is the rule, this is why I'm doing it. Like rules and reasoning together. But I have a certain amount of tickets available to me to do that as an adult. And if there are some situations like, oh, actually they don't wanna come on a walk at a certain time that I've said, you have to be there at this time, does that matter that much to me? No, that's true.

Nicole Howes 0:12:39 Is it that deep? And if you can have that, those moments of giving them choice are not necessarily about giving them 100% freedom and allowing them to rule the roost, it's about, you choosing. I'm going to give them choice at this moment, so that they've then got a little bit of time to exercise that freedom in a controlled way. Okay. So it's actually not about, oh yeah, just do whatever you want, go where you want, don't come home when I tell you to come home.

Nicole Howes 0:13:03 Like, there has to be boundaries in place. They're really, really important. And I think when we take them away, that's when we're at risk of becoming more distant from our teens. So we do need those boundaries.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:15 I always say this, but Eliza matured early. You say it within the book, you know, every teen is different. You, like, you have actually said from 10 onward, depending on the child, it starts all of this, you know, what we're talking about. And I feel my worst years were, I would say, 13 and 14.

Nicole Howes 0:13:35 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:36 With Eliza. They were the pits. Really, really bad. When I say really bad, I just mean arguments. I heard the door slamming and the frustration and the anger. There was a lot of that going on. Yeah. And I thought, oh my God, I just don't know what to do. I just didn't know what to do. But we've got through that. And I think what else that you say and is so important, and it made me chuckle to myself, is all of these things will pass. Yeah. All of these times will pass. But when you're in it, you really think this is it, this is how it's gonna be forever.

Nicole Howes 0:14:09 Yeah, it feels so deep. And I think you have so much fear.

Nicole Howes 0:14:12 There's so much fear before we even get to the point of raising our children at teenage years, where people are saying, well, you might find them difficult now when they're a toddler, but wait until they're teens. And that the teens are given a really bad rep in the press. And like, there's a lot of fearmongering that we don't even realise is happening to us before we even have these children at this age. And then we feel so, responsible for getting them from A to B, and doing it in such a way that we still hold onto that relationship with them. I think that fear sometimes guides the way that we parent.

Nicole Howes 0:14:44 And that's what, you know, when we hear people like us saying, actually, it's all right, you'll be okay, you can find fun in it, you'll get through it, there will be tough days, but you have that support network. I think the whole thing feels a lot like, oh, okay, can breathe a bit now, and I can just relax into this a little bit. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:01 I picked Eliza up from school yesterday, and she was really, she's gone back to school with a real, it's brilliant. She's just got a spark in her step.

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:10 Nice. She's doing, she really wants to do well. She's got mocks in November. It's a very, very stressful time, but she's grabbing the bull with both horns and really going for it at the moment. It's only been a week in, who knows what'll happen next week.

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:21 But you know, she's got a really good attitude. And she'd done something in biology, and she was saying, Mum, I've gotta talk to you about this. You know, when was the last time you had a really good cry? And I said, I haven't had a good cry in ages. And she said, you know, you wake up and you say, I'm aching and my shoulders hurt.

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:37 You know, you say you feel heavy. You should really have a good cry, 'cause, you know, all your muscles hold onto your stress. And I was driving and I thought, yeah, it's probably true. And I just thought how lovely that she's come into this age to sort of talk to me like that. And she has a good cry.

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:54 And she said, see, when I have a good cry, I say there's nothing to worry about. It's good for you. And I do, I worry if she—

Nicole Howes 0:15:59 Oh, that's so healthy. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:16:00 And she's, yeah, she's a very good girl. Very good.

Nicole Howes 0:16:03 Yeah, it sounds like you're doing something right.

Natalie Cassidy 0:16:05 How are you finding 13 and 15? How is it for you?

Nicole Howes 0:16:09 I don't think I could really say. It changes, like you said, it changes day by day.

Natalie Cassidy 0:16:12 Yeah.

Nicole Howes 0:16:13 Like, you have days where you're like, yeah, I've absolutely nailed this, I've got it great. And then other days where you're like, oh my goodness, like, what am I doing? And I think because I spend so much time now talking about teenagers and talking about the practicals and the perfect way to do things, from the start it's never been about having a guide. That's why the book is called Not a Survival Guide.

Natalie Cassidy 0:16:32 Yeah. You can't just give a handbook out to someone and get it right all the time.

Nicole Howes 0:16:36 But I think particularly in this role, if I'm honest, what I'm finding is I'm judging myself on a totally different plane now because I've got all this advice, I've got these, these practical tools that you can use, and they do work for the most part, but they don't work 100% of the time with every single child. And so you definitely have moments, even if you think you're doing it perfect, that it all just goes tits That's just teenage years.

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:02 I don't think there is a perfect.

Nicole Howes 0:17:05 No.

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:05 And I can imagine having, you know, written that book, there's a lot of pressure on you because everyone must think, oh, it's Mary Poppins over here. Yeah. She's got it, you know, she's got it down, she's got it right. But like you say, you never know what the day's gonna bring.

Nicole Howes 0:17:20 No. And the whole point of the book was actually no one is that. So the fact that I'm fallible completely, and we all are, That's the whole point, you know. That's what we're trying to say when we're saying about creating a village. Yes. We're not creating a village of these perfect Stepford Wife vibe mums. We're creating a village of people that are coming up with their problems and their issues and their faults, and they're saying, look, this is who I am, and they're laying it on the table because we all need that. We all need that to support one another. We have to hear the The good and the bad.

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:55 I think it's brilliant to hear the bad. I think it's so refreshing. And it's within any walk of life.

Nicole Howes 0:18:03 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:04 If you are honest and say whatever it is, be it, I've had a shit day, whatever it's about, whatever it's about, the other person will breathe a sigh, you know, they will sigh, they'll have that relief to think it's not just me and I'm not on my own. 100%. And that's really, really important. I like this little bit. I bookmarked this bit out of, not your book, Not a Survival Guide.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:29 Scroll less, read more.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:33 Interestingly, it has been said that reading to your children when they are young could improve their empathy levels. Now, we know that reading is really diminishing in younger children massively. It's a huge problem. What are your views about that? And then we can move on to the blue light and the phone, which I think's really important to do as well.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:53 Yeah.

Nicole Howes 0:18:54 Reading, I think, is so important. Like, we have it told to us all the time, and you're absolutely right, it is diminishing, especially in our youth. I think it's just a case of finding something that they actually enjoy, because children that are reading fiction are seen to be more empathetic. And actually, as parents, the more we read as well, the healthier it is for us to pattern that and show them that it's a healthy option. I'm really pleased you said that. It's not always easy to get them to do it, No, absolutely not.

Natalie Cassidy 0:19:24 And I'm really pleased you've said that though, because, you know, do as I say and not as I do doesn't always work.

Nicole Howes 0:19:31 Fair enough.

Natalie Cassidy 0:19:32 And I have really tried. I'm really trying with Joni.

Nicole Howes 0:19:36 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:19:37 Because unfortunately, Eliza doesn't read. She just doesn't read. I've— she's got lots of different books. She loved Frieda McFadden, the film, so she got that book and she did have a little go. I'm not overly worried. She reads really well. She's obviously reading a lot for school at the moment. There's a, you know, a lot of reading being done. And I hope that in a few years' time, she'll find something that she falls in love with and continues to read. But because of that, I'm now obsessed with Joni. I don't— I want her to keep reading.

Nicole Howes 0:20:05 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:06 So I've been really good at saying we should sit on the sofa, not just when you're tired at night. Yeah. You've done the teeth, you've done the bath, she's in bed, and then I, you know, she's exhausted. She reads 2 pages and she doesn't wanna read anymore. So I'm trying to say, let's go and sit in the lounge together, and we'll— but I'll read my book, you read your book.

Nicole Howes 0:20:25 Yeah, great.

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:26 And have 20 minutes.

Nicole Howes 0:20:27 And to bring them all in, we do an analogue evening sometimes. So we'll sit there and we'll make it an analogue evening. I don't know if you've seen the trend around, like, teenagers having analogue bags, where they have a bag of stuff that's all stuff that they can do that isn't on their devices. So I kind of caught on to that and brought that into the house a little bit. And because analogue to them seems cool— I mean, I'm born in the '80s, so—

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:49 Me too.

Nicole Howes 0:20:50 Whether or not I think it's that cool, I don't know, but The analogue evenings allow us to do something where not everyone wants to read. So myself—

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:57 So tell me what's in your bag. I'm interested. Tell everybody.

Nicole Howes 0:21:00 So it could be something like, um, watercolour painting, or you could read, which is the obvious one, but it could be something like crochet or drawing or, um, some sort of puzzle. Anything that you like to do that takes you away from the screen. And we all do it.

Nicole Howes 0:21:16 It's like an enforced, like, we're doing analogue evening now, and you don't want to make it miserable, don't get me wrong, but— and you will get some eye rolls and resistance maybe, but just from time to time it just gives you something different to do in the evening. And like, we'll get the snacks out and we'll make it like a nice thing, put some music on, um, vinyl ideally if you're doing your analogue evening, but it depends what you've got at your disposal. It doesn't matter. I do have vinyl, I do. Um, and then we'll just make it a bit of a thing, but they like it.

Nicole Howes 0:21:45 It takes them back to something that's not just On the phone. Phone, film. Yeah, see, I love that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:21:51 And I'm thinking to myself, when have you got the time to do that, Nicole? That's what I wanna know.

Nicole Howes 0:21:57 20 minutes. Really? Like, if you've got 20 minutes together, just be like, oh, should we just do some analogue? Quick analogue something. Whatever. Fine, okay. I don't care. And it's about saying, I don't care what it is, bring what you want to the table. I don't mind if you're like sketching down some, like my son writes lots of songs, so he might be like songwriting or something. It's gotta be what they want to do.

Natalie Cassidy 0:22:16 Yeah.

Nicole Howes 0:22:17 It's just your opportunity to bring that I mean, even if it was like your art homework, and you were like, oh, actually, you're doing your art homework, I'll sit and read a book with you.

Natalie Cassidy 0:22:24 Yes.

Nicole Howes 0:22:25 That brings it into like a collective, rather than everyone being off in their own rooms and doing their own thing.

Natalie Cassidy 0:22:31 I do find the 10 and near 16, you know, in the room for quite a long while, you know, Eliza does get very annoyed very quickly.

Nicole Howes 0:22:42 Well, maybe if she spoke to someone instead.

Natalie Cassidy 0:22:44 I don't want her to be stressed, you know, I don't want her to be stressed, so I find that it's just, Yeah. Easier for me to, you know, do stuff with Joni and do stuff with Eliza. But you're right, you know, it's definitely getting better, that actually, they are becoming closer. But it's—

Nicole Howes 0:22:57 It helps just to reinforce that family unit oxytocin as well. Yeah. So just like there is brain science behind bringing families together, like if sitting around the table isn't something that works for your family because, I don't know, timings or fussy eaters or whatever it is, that analogue opportunity, is quite a good way to kind of generate that same family unit thing without it being around food, 'cause that doesn't work for everyone.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:23 No, that's so true. I think music's a big one for us as a family. Yeah. Definitely music is huge, where we'll all pick a song and we'll do stuff like that. Yeah. Especially in the car, if we're travelling somewhere, we do choose a song. And no, it's really interesting. It's great. Should we go on to some questions? 'Cause we've got loads.

Nicole Howes 0:23:42 Yeah, yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:44 Yeah, up for that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:44 Okay. Thank you, everybody who has texted, or WhatsApped, sorry, in. Here we go. Hannah in Blackpool said, On the subject of teenagers, all I can say is give me a toddler over a teenager any day of the week. My daughter is the same age as Eliza, September-born too, and I do feel like we are getting glimmers of her coming through the hating us stage.

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:07 But I tell you, that's been tough. Like I say, I thought the toddler phase was bad, but nothing prepares you for the teenage years. I look forward to the episode on this subject. Thank you so much. And that's from Hannah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:18 And I, I just wanted to, do you think they hate us? Again, all of these quotes, and this is not having a go at you, Hannah, if you're listening, but again, it's that stereotypical thing of, oh, teenagers hate their parents. You know, the teenagers, they hate their mum and dad, and they don't really, do they?

Nicole Howes 0:24:37 No, they don't. They will push you away.

Nicole Howes 0:24:39 There's lots of science to say that, um, their brains develop in a way so they actually want to pull away from the tribe. Like, it, It goes back and back and back. So they're pulling away from the tribe because they can't stay around forever, they can't stay at home forever, so they need that distance to be gained between you. But they will push you away, but I strongly believe they actually need you more than ever. So just keep turning up into their space and, you know, creating moments, even if they're a little bit orchestrated on your part, that you can actually get together.

Nicole Howes 0:25:11 And even if they're eye rolling, and even if they're like, oh, Mum, you're so cringe. Like, I don't wanna be here. You still have to do it. You still have to keep turning up and collecting them.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:20 It's really interesting you mention that they need you more than ever at this age. Yeah. Anyone now who's got a baby.

Nicole Howes 0:25:28 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:29 It's so hard to tell them.

Nicole Howes 0:25:30 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:31 But I'm like, go to work now. Leave them. They're fine. As long as they're fed. Unchanged. They'll be fine. And of course, I mean that in the loosest possible way, you know, all children need their carers.

Nicole Howes 0:25:45 Of course.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:46 But I completely agree with you. If I could now not work for the next 2 years, I would love to just be on hand for them only. Yeah.

Nicole Howes 0:25:58 There's a lot of whispering about teen-ternity. Have you seen that?

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:00 I have seen— no, you mentioned it to me the other day.

Nicole Howes 0:26:03 Yeah, we chatted, didn't we, about it briefly? Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of mention about that, and I can certainly see the benefits of it. I mean, I don't think our society realistically is set up to support that. They don't seem to be doing a particularly good job of supporting parents, full stop. No. So, at the point where we could get to where we could afford to take 2, 3 years off to support teenagers, we're probably a long way from that at the moment, realistically. But, if you've got the time available to you, 100%, be around, keep an eye on 'em.

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:31 Of course, we all go to work, we all do stuff. I'm really lucky. I get, you know, I can go away and be really, really busy, flat out, but then I have weeks where I am around.

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:40 And it is about time goes really quickly. And I think us, we need to take responsibility. At 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock, when I'm cooking dinner, et cetera, you know, I'm trying to leave that phone alone. I'm trying to then chat to Eliza or Joni, or talk about their day, or I always let them get in. That's another thing I do.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:05 You can tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't sort of bombard them with questions straight away. I think they need to go and have their snack, watch a bit of telly, and just chill out. They've had 6, 7 hours of being spoken at and learning. Yeah. But I think we are the culprits when we say, oh, I never see them.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:23 I think, well, I bet you sat scrolling on your phone a lot, because that's what we do.

Nicole Howes 0:27:26 Again, it's patterning though, isn't it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:28 Yes.

Nicole Howes 0:27:29 It's showing them what we want them to behave like. Like, we can't— it's hypocritical, especially at this age. They'll just call you out on it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:38 Yeah, that's right.

Nicole Howes 0:27:39 They will see it as well. It's not just something that we're able to do and get away with now, like maybe you could if they were a toddler and they're set up somewhere. Like, our teens know if we're in the other room scrolling our phone rather than sitting with them.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:51 Yeah, or doing something that's worth doing.

Nicole Howes 0:27:54 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:55 What do you think about all the phone stuff before we carry on with listeners?

Nicole Howes 0:28:00 Um, we talked about this before, didn't we?

Natalie Cassidy 0:28:03 We did, we did.

Nicole Howes 0:28:05 Yeah, I, I think the phones are a huge issue, but what you said a minute ago about taking responsibility ourselves as parents, I think that's the first step. I do I think that the tech companies have a lot to answer for, and I'm hopeful that there's gonna be some change. Yeah. There seems to be a bit of a turn in the tide in it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:28:26 But the change isn't gonna affect us 'cause we're in it. Yeah. So it's irrelevant. It's true. I'm not being selfish. It's bloody brilliant, fantastic. Hopefully it'll, hopefully it will impact Joni. Hopefully when she goes to school, there won't be lots of peer pressure. It's next year. I'm not so sure. I think it'll still be around. But yeah, for people, you know, my great nieces and nephews, for instance, you know, Ro-Ro's kids and Elia's, please God that they won't have this. Yeah. problem. We've had a very, very rough ride is what I think.

Nicole Howes 0:28:52 Yeah, it's been a real learning phase, hasn't it? And we've kind of— Well, we never knew.

Natalie Cassidy 0:28:56 All been through it. Yeah, we've all been pulled into it. But yeah, what, what do you say to people who, you know, just, just, you know, their child, if they're out of school, is continuously on that phone? They're upstairs, they're away from parents, and they're always on it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:29:14 Now, Eliza, I'm not sitting here saying that doesn't happen, but genuine, I really, maybe I'm being naive, but we talk about it a lot. Yeah. I talk about it a lot. Same. It drives her mad, but I do.

Natalie Cassidy 0:29:29 And whenever I go into her room, she is, she's on the phone to people on FaceTime. She's talking and she's not much of a scroller. And I check the times and I look at the screen time and she's good. She's not that bad. What do we say to people?

Natalie Cassidy 0:29:48 Do you think people have just got lost in it and they don't realise the risks and the harm of the scrolling stuff?

Nicole Howes 0:29:55 I don't think they don't necessarily know the risks and the harm, but I think it takes a lot of work to get to the point where you put restrictions in place, you put boundaries in place, and then you actually follow them through. It's kind of, it's a habit that as adults, we find really hard to break. So let alone when you're doing it secondhand for your child, who is then constantly resistant of that change. And there's a lot of peer pressure and other elements.

Nicole Howes 0:30:26 There's so much nuance involved in it. Yeah. But I would say, if you feel strongly that your child shouldn't be on their phone, which I personally do, I don't think that children should have unlimited access. I don't think that they necessarily need to be completely banned from it now at this stage of the children that have been on it, because I do appreciate it is a way of them feeling connected and feeling part of a community. And there are children in very vulnerable situations that I don't think a blanket rule necessarily works.

Nicole Howes 0:30:55 Mm-hmm. But I would try small changes. So it could be that you put some rules in place for what time you come off the phone in the evenings. It could be that you don't have any phones in other places other than shared areas in the house. It could be that the phone goes on charge downstairs on a dock, and you all do that.

Nicole Howes 0:31:12 But one of the main things, again, we're touching on it again, is showing examples. Like, do that yourself when you come in from work. Plug your phone into the charger on the hall table, or wherever it is, so that you, you're not drawn into it. Don't sit there on your phone whilst you're watching a film together as a family. Like, all of those changes, you then have something to say, well, actually, I'm not doing this, and I wouldn't like you to do it either.

Natalie Cassidy 0:31:35 Yes. It's a lot easier.

Nicole Howes 0:31:37 than, can you just, like, stop scrolling, please? And you're— And you're on your phone.

Natalie Cassidy 0:31:42 Yeah.

Nicole Howes 0:31:42 So, yeah, I think that would be the one thing that I would change straight away, like, your own response to the situation. Mhmm. Because if you're telling them it's damaging, teenagers particularly, the first thing they will think is, well, you do it. Can't be that bad.

Natalie Cassidy 0:31:55 Yeah. Absolutely.

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:08 Saw you was doing a pod about teenagers and just wanted to drop you this little voice note. I'm a mum, but I'm also somebody who works in a secondary school with teenagers and has done for many years now. And it has been an absolute privilege every September to see those new little 11-year-olds walking through the gates and knowing that I am so blessed that I get to see them grow into young adults. Teenagers these days get a lot of bad press, and I think it's unwarranted and it's completely unfair. Yes, there are difficult teenagers out there, but there have been difficult teenagers since time began.

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:44 Are teenagers more difficult these days? Yes, they are, but they are living in a different world to the one in which we lived and the one in which our parents lived. I feel that teenagers that are unjustly judged at the moment, um, by adults— and it, to me, it's crazy. We are the adults who are raising those teenagers. We are the ones who should be putting the boundaries in and giving them consistency that they need to thrive in life.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:13 Teenagers need consistency. Teenagers need boundaries. You are not their mate. You are their parent. You are their guardian.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:21 And if we're getting that wrong, that is what, in my opinion, in my experience, causes the biggest problems. I've worked with teenagers for years. The parents who are the mates You're not doing anyone any favours at all. Be their parent. Tell them no.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:38 Make decisions they don't like. I did that for my own teenager when she was a teenager. She's now a young adult. She hated me. She wasn't badly behaved, but she mentally traumatised me for many years.

Speaker J 0:35:51 She's 25 now and we laugh about it. She tells me all the time, Mum, thank you so much. Thank you for not letting me roam the streets.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:58 Thank you for not letting me have social media. Because if she'd done all the things that she wanted to do, she wouldn't be the successful young adult that she is now. And she's absolutely smashing life, and she's gone into working with young people as well, and I couldn't be prouder.

Speaker D 0:36:11 If you've got a difficult teenager, hang on in there, keep putting those boundaries in place, stay consistent, understand that they're living in a society that is difficult, and give them time, give them space. They will come right.

Natalie Cassidy 0:36:28 Oh, what a fantastic message. I love that.

Nicole Howes 0:36:29 Yeah, isn't that great?

Natalie Cassidy 0:36:31 What's your— the kind of don't be their friend, how do you feel about that? Because I feel the older Eliza's getting, I'd say we are, we do have a friendship. As much as I am mum, I feel that she is my friend as well.

Nicole Howes 0:36:47 Yeah, I think there's a space for, I think there's a space for that. But I don't think that you would treat her as a friend, as in you would tell her everything that was going on with you, or you would confide in her in the same way that you would your friends. And I think that's the difference. I think there is a different type of relationship, which is an open mothering relationship that allows you to have that and be the friend to her without necessarily her having to take on your element of a friendship. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's definitely— that's the line for me.

Natalie Cassidy 0:37:23 Hey Nat, OG listener Claire here. Love, love, love the pod for keeping me sane on the school run and many kids' after-school activity drives. I'm just replying to your message about teenagers. Jesus, where do I start? I have a 26-year-old, so been through it all with her, a 17-year-old, so currently in the thick of it with him, and a 10-year-old, so I've got it all to come.

Natalie Cassidy 0:37:45 What I wanted to say was OMG. My 17-year-old has just started college last week, and no one, and I mean no one, prepares you for the literal lack of communication, lack of information, and lack of structure. Not only from my son who thinks he's far too cool to give me any info about what he's up to at college, but actually from the college too. I'm finding the stark contrast from school really hard to adjust to. Is it just me, or has anyone else felt like this?

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:15 I have to prise every bit of info out of him. I've had no info from the college about anything to the point where I don't even know who to contact to report his upcoming absence next week. Is it just boys? Because I don't remember feeling this out of my depth when my daughter went to college. I still felt part of the gang, so to speak.

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:33 Send help, I'm struggling here. Bless her.

Nicole Howes 0:38:36 Bless her.

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:37 Sorry about that, Claire. I do think there is a difference. I mean, I do think there is a difference with girls and boys and the information that you get. I do think girls, we, I think And yeah, I just think females are, just think we'd like to chat more, end of story, really.

Nicole Howes 0:38:55 Yeah, I mean, it's something I personally see in my experience. I've got a boy and a girl, and I do definitely think that the girls are more in the loop with stuff that's going on from an organisational perspective. In my scenario, that's definitely what I've seen reflected.

Nicole Howes 0:39:11 But I guess once they're at college, we have to question, like, how much do we need to be involved? The college probably do it on purpose, to be quite honest, because they, they need them at that stage to step up. And again, they can make mistakes, that's okay. Like, if he misses something or he doesn't get an absence reported or he doesn't have his kit or whatever he needs one day, it doesn't matter that much.

Natalie Cassidy 0:39:36 No, and also he'll learn by that, won't he?

Nicole Howes 0:39:38 Yeah, 100%. Yeah, they learn from those moments. And I think as long as you have an open relationship, so you're saying, look, I'm here if you need me, if you want me to help you out with anything, I can, but actually I'm going to take a because this is your time. Like, we've got this far together. I'm still very much in your corner.

Nicole Howes 0:39:55 I'm still very much there for you if you need any help, if you feel like you're struggling, but I believe in you. I know that you can do it. So at this stage, it might be an opportunity for her to be a little less hands-on. It's not easy though, because then you've gotta let go.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:08 Right, Jo Gregory's been in touch on Instagram and a message, so I know that she's very keen for us to talk about it. Very excited about the show. I don't have a question so much as a topic I'd like it to be covered, and it's about drugs in general, every element. How to talk to them about them, how to handle things if they find out they're experimenting, you know, drugs basically. This, you know, Jo's saying she's scared. Drugs are now cheaper than alcohol in some cases. Yeah. And how do you talk to them about those things? How have you done it?

Nicole Howes 0:40:45 Well, the first thing I would say is don't ever approach it when there's a heightened situation. So if you have found out they're experimenting, or, um, you feel worried or scared about something, just try and take a step back and let that situation dissipate a bit before you have a conversation, because teenagers won't listen to you in a heightened situation.

Nicole Howes 0:41:05 They're physically not able to engage in a conversation or reasoning with you when they're in a state of stress, or anger, or a high emotional state. experience. Maybe they need the big cry that we said about, whatever it is. Yeah. They need to get that out of their system first.

Nicole Howes 0:41:19 Secondly, with any subject that we're talking about, so whether it's drugs, sex, um, vaping is a huge issue at the moment, um, that kind of ties into the same situation, relationships, any of those things, I would always approach everything with curiosity. So don't go into these conversations with judgement. Ask questions. So what are you finding you're seeing at the moment? Or do any of your friends take or have you been offered them?

Nicole Howes 0:41:48 What do you feel about it? And if they're like, actually, yeah, this is something I want to try, which some teenagers will have that conversation with you, like, oh, my friend has tried this, and I wanna try it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:41:58 Mm-hmm.

Nicole Howes 0:41:59 And they can be quite blunt with you in those situations, because some teenagers will think, well, you can't stop me. I'll have this conversation with you, because I'm just gonna do what I want anyway. And I think if we lead these conversations with curiosity, we have more chance of getting an understanding under the skin of them, and giving them reason. So give them actual facts and figures and reason, if you can, as to why you don't think it's a good idea yet. Let them know that when they're an adult, fully fledged adult, they'll be entitled to make their own decisions on these things. But particularly with drugs, your brain is still developing.

Natalie Cassidy 0:42:36 Mm.

Nicole Howes 0:42:37 For these teenage years. And if you can let them understand that, that their brains are still very young, they're still forming, then that gives you something, some point of reason that isn't just you as their mum saying no. Because if that's all they're hearing, the chances are— They'll do it more. They're not gonna respond well to it, and they're gonna do it more. So it's about that curiosity, because ultimately we can't actually, if we're realistic, we can't actually stop them from doing these things.

Nicole Howes 0:43:02 We can't stop them from experimenting. We can't wrap them up and just keep them in the house all the time. There are going to be opportunities, especially with it being so prevalent now, that they come across these moments, and they have to be given the tools to make the right decisions themselves, 'cause we're not on their shoulder at that point, telling them what to do, what's right and what's wrong. It's a very tricky one, and it makes a lot of people really uncomfortable.

Natalie Cassidy 0:43:25 Yeah.

Nicole Howes 0:43:26 To talk about it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:43:26 I think it is. I think it's a really hard one. And I think our, as young people, you are really curious about the world. And that's just another thing you think, oh, it's another thing that you've not done and you wanna do.

Nicole Howes 0:43:39 And it's glamorised completely.

Natalie Cassidy 0:43:41 Yeah, it is glamorised, yeah. No, it is definitely a hard one. I've spoken a lot with Eliza, but again, it's very open conversation.

Nicole Howes 0:43:48 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:43:49 It's all, it's just spoken about a lot, different things. And really, at the end of it, I say most, you know, most people that were really known for that at school, When I look now, haven't really done much.

Nicole Howes 0:44:04 Yeah, yeah, 100%. And actually, if you can show examples of that— the other thing, the other tool that's quite useful if you don't feel comfortable having direct conversations is to use somebody else as an example. So, um, you could even make up someone. Oh, so-and-so was talking at work about their son that had this issue. And actually, by bringing it away from the teenager, sometimes that allows them to just access without feeling like they're being nagged or pressurised or nagged or, um, attacked. Yeah, that's really good. That's quite a good tool.

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:40 Oh, this is lovely.

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:41 Right, this is Claire from Kent. Another Claire, here we go. Hi Natalie, first time messaging. I'm fairly new, but I think I've been listening to your pod for nearly 6 months, and I just want to say thank you. I've not had the best of years.

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:53 I have 2 children, and my youngest has been very unwell mentally, so listening to podcasts has been my escape. I'm so glad I found your pod. It's my escape from the chaos and I just want to say thank you to you and your family. You're all great. Thank you so much, Clare.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:06 I have 2 lovely daughters. One is 12 and still nice to me, and my oldest, who turned 14 this year, and oh my God, don't we know about it. Is it normal to feel redundant? I feel like she's sacked me for her friends, and I'm very happy for her, but why does it come with attitude as well? I was so smug last year thinking how lovely she was, But just like that, she doesn't want to know me much these days, and if she does talk to me, it normally turns into an argument, especially with me.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:37 She makes going out with family awkward. Her don't-give-a-shit attitude is out of control. She thinks everything is funny as well. I want to go on holiday soon as a family, but I'm actually dreading it. I thought going on holiday with toddlers is hard, but no one tells you about the teenage years.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:54 All I'm asking is, is this normal? I'm ignoring as much as I can and letting her live her life, but it comes with rules, and I think that's where she doesn't like it, as apparently her friends don't have rules. Thank you for reading. There's a lot in there. I'll let you unpack it.

Nicole Howes 0:46:10 There is. It's a tale as old as time as well, isn't it? With, well, my so-and-so's parents let me do— let them do whatever, and we've got rules in our house, which we all know is not necessarily always the case.

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:20 No.

Nicole Howes 0:46:20 The answer is yes, it's completely normal. and it is one of those things that you are gonna have to buckle in for and ride through it. Um, I would say to keep the conversations open, as we've said all the way through this, this chat. We need to keep those lines of conversation open.

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:36 Mm.

Nicole Howes 0:46:37 So you've got that safe space of community and connection with them. Um, but also make moments where you can just have moments of connection, like even if it's just tiny, like instead of shouting her down for dinner, go and get her Walk back with her. Like, have those tiny moments that you're actually physically in her space. And it's a really important thing to, to forge connection in that way. So pick them up from the bus stop occasionally, have those moments of, like, a conversation.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:06 From what Claire's saying though, Nicole, I have to say, I would imagine Claire would say to us, she would just roll her eyes, huff, say, go away. You know, it's really, it's hard, it's tough, isn't it? It sounds like she's quite angry with her mum. She's really got no time for her mum at the moment. What I would say, Clare, what I think I've done in those situations, which have definitely happened before, is I've gone, right, we need to have a chat whether you like it or not. I'd like you to sit down and we need to talk about this.

Nicole Howes 0:47:34 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:34 This is what I've said before. Yes, you may be growing up and you've got a lot going on in your head. I've also got a lot going on in my life and there's no need to be rude.

Nicole Howes 0:47:45 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:45 And I'd have a really honest conversation and say, you can take— I don't wanna argue. I don't want any raised voices. I just want you to listen to what I've got to say. If you've got something to say afterwards, that's fine. If you're not interested, fine. I wanna get this off my chest, but there's no need to be rude. I've brought you up for 14 years. I love you very, very much. I know things are changing, but a lesser the attitude, please. And honestly, Clare, I would. That's what I would do.

Nicole Howes 0:48:10 Yeah, I think that's a really healthy approach though, because it gives you a chance to just humanise yourself as well. I think they completely forget that we as parents have feelings as well. And actually, even after that conversation, she still might not care, quite frankly.

Natalie Cassidy 0:48:25 Yeah.

Nicole Howes 0:48:26 Because they are all up in their head. They're so egocentric at that age. But also, we're the adult. So if you can try not to go back at her, that's really helpful. It's very hard.

Nicole Howes 0:48:38 It's so hard. Yeah, it's so hard. And also, if you do, don't beat yourself up. because you're only human in a very high-pressure environment that is in your home. It's not something that you can get away from.

Nicole Howes 0:48:51 You know, you have a huge amount of responsibility to your child to, like, keep your head and keep everything going as it should be. But that is incredibly hard. And I think that also comes with a lot of self-judgment. Like, am I doing enough? Have I done a good enough job?

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:05 Absolutely. I shouldn't have lost my head then, whatever. Yeah. Or is this normal? She doesn't feel like— she feels like she's failing, obviously, 'cause she thinks, is this just me? Claire, I can assure you, it's not just you. It's everybody. Everybody goes through that. We're all failing. We're not. We're just all living and trying to bring up these children to the best of our ability.

Nicole Howes 0:49:23 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:24 And, yeah, you're not on your own. And as I say, I also think the anger thing I've got better at. If I get really pissed off, I think about that now, and I just take a minute.

Nicole Howes 0:49:36 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:36 I do. I walk away rather than argue. And I am good at that now.

Nicole Howes 0:49:40 But also, conflict resolution is a really healthy tool to show them as well.

Nicole Howes 0:49:43 So they need— Yeah. Also, they need to see you. If you flare up unnecessarily and you can apologise for that and say, actually, the reason that this happened was this, this is how I was feeling, this is what happened, and yes, I did this, and I'm sorry I shouted or lost my temper, whatever it is. But actually, then you can expect that of them back in return. Yes, yeah.

Nicole Howes 0:50:03 So when they lose their heads, wait for the apology. You'll probably have it where they're like, they've kicked off, and then suddenly they're at the door, like, looking in, trying to see, gauge, can I come in? Like, has Mum forgiven me? Like, that patterning of how you respond to high-pressure situations will rub off on them. Definitely.

Nicole Howes 0:50:22 And that will make them stronger as time goes on.

Natalie Cassidy 0:50:24 And I have definitely apologised to Eliza many a time for losing my rag or shouting too, you know. Yeah. And exactly what you've just described, I've said, I'm so sorry, I'm coming on my period, Or, you know, it's just stressful at the moment. I've got a lot on my head. I didn't need this today, but I am sorry for overreacting. And we did. Yeah. And she's, she's good at apologising as well. So hopefully she's got that from me.

Nicole Howes 0:50:44 Well, 100%.

Natalie Cassidy 0:50:47 Oh, Nat, the teenage years. So weird how so much info and material on those young years, but not the same on the teens. This is why you need to get Nicole's book. Honestly, it's brilliant.

Natalie Cassidy 0:50:57 Mine have both been quite easy teens, really. My son has been very placid with the exception of 2 or 3 occasions and is a good lad. We drop him at uni on Saturday. I'm trying so hard to hide my emotions on this, as I want it to be a positive experience for him, and it's not about me. But I worry that he's a bit too kind and nice and a bit of a doughnut.

Natalie Cassidy 0:51:18 Oh, bless him. Bless him. I don't think I give him enough credit, but he does live in his own little world. He's very happy there. My daughter, who is 3 years younger, same age as your Eliza, is super clever and could move out tomorrow.

Natalie Cassidy 0:51:30 She's self-sufficient, and yet she's going through a really hard time mentally, weight, self-esteem, and has caused huge confrontations. We've brought them up the same way, yet 2 totally different problems and worries. I often feel very judged by how they are and blame myself for all of the above. I worry about them both more now than ever. It's a tough world out there for them now and getting started in the world of work, but it's also wonderful to see them grow and become their own people, and deep down knowing you did all you could And that is all you can do.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:01 From Em. Lovely message. Thanks, Emma.

Nicole Howes 0:52:03 Quite a sentiment, isn't it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:04 But it is, it's, uh, I, I see where you're coming from there, Emma. I, I think I genuinely, if, if Eliza could drive now, I feel like Eliza could live on her own. So apart from clearing up, you know, a standard, you know, she doesn't do everything. But, um, what about that? What do you think about that, by the way? Because a lot of people sort of frown on me. My children don't really do any chores.

Nicole Howes 0:52:31 Do they not?

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:33 No.

Nicole Howes 0:52:33 Because they're, because they're laid out for them and they refuse them, or because you don't put them in place?

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:39 Just don't really put them in place.

Nicole Howes 0:52:40 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:41 Um, Joni makes her bed. Eliza will tidy her room of an evening. Uh, she won't go to sleep in a messy room. So if it's clothes, bed, but again, I think everyone's life is different.

Nicole Howes 0:52:54 Yep.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:54 Eliza gets up super early. We're leaving super early. I don't expect her to tidy her room in the morning, really. In terms of dinner, sometimes they might bring their plates over to the side, put them in the dishwasher, but very rarely. I do, I just get on with it. Maybe because I'm at home a bit more now. You know, I've always just done that. And again, I think it is generational, Nicole. I never—

Nicole Howes 0:53:19 Personally, I think it's each to their own in the household. I tend to not call them, chores or help for me. I think that's something that we've eradicated. So rather than saying, would you mind helping me with—

Natalie Cassidy 0:53:32 No, it's our house.

Nicole Howes 0:53:33 Yeah, completely. And actually, that is the only— like, for me, it's not about like coming down on them like children must do chores, because I appreciate like they're children. Like, do they need to be doing that much stuff and that much work around the house? Probably not. But we do have certain jobs that are allocated Which we just had a family chat about, and we're just like, right, who's going to do what?

Nicole Howes 0:53:55 At the moment, I'm doing everything, and that doesn't— well, between me and my husband, my husband is at work, out at work more than I am out and about. So I'm doing a large majority of the housework. What are you going to do?

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:09 Mm-hmm.

Nicole Howes 0:54:09 And then straight away they were like, all right, well, I'll do the dishwasher and I'll do the recycling, and someone will do something else.

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:14 Mm-hmm.

Nicole Howes 0:54:15 And the jobs get split. And actually, it's been a good few years now that we've been running it like that. And that's very good. They just know they're their jobs, but they've got the pick. Like, it doesn't bother me what they do as long as we know that we're working collectively together on it, rather than it just be like, I'm running the house and it's all my responsibility. Because there is a value to the work that women do in the home, and that's what I want them to know, that that value should be shared across the family.

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:43 I'd say Mark and I Yeah, we, we very good at sharing stuff out, but we do it all. For me, really being honest, I just think, Joanie's 10, she's just too little. Doesn't need to be doing, as long as she's putting her tooth, you know, once she's brushed her teeth, those things go away. Her things that she's doing need to be looked after. So, you know, I'll say, if you've played with that, you need to put that away now.

Nicole Howes 0:55:09 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:10 If I, you know, I do you instil that.

Nicole Howes 0:55:13 It's, you know, it's probably more than you think you're doing then. I think at that stage, if they're doing those things, then great. But yeah, also sometimes they like it. Like, they like the responsibility of having something that they're doing, adding to the family. And that, yeah, dopamine and that reward that you get from doing something well for other people, that's a really nice thing as well.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:35 Very good, very good.

Nicole Howes 0:55:37 And maybe that's your analogue evening sorted. Just get them to do all the housework.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:40 Yeah, that's true. That's true. I do, I'm not gonna sit here, I do treat myself now to a cleaner. Good. Just because everything is very, very busy. And I do, I love my, I love, love cleaning, putting music on and doing it. But actually something has to give sometimes. I don't know how you feel. Yeah. But something does have to give. And I think actually if I can afford to have that, that 2, 3 hours a week, that gives me time to go for an hour's walk. Yeah. And actually, I need— that's more beneficial for me.

Nicole Howes 0:56:13 I was thinking cleaner. We have, um, we have a cleaner, the cleaning company, 2 lovely sisters actually that have been working with us for a really long time. So they're kind of like part of our family vibe as well. Um, but I always think there's a value in having that if it allows you to do something else. So like you say, if it gives you the space for your mental health, great.

Nicole Howes 0:56:33 But also it might just give you the chance to earn money with skills that I'm not actually a very good cleaner. I'm not very good at cleaning, and I'm always disappointed after I've spent ages doing it and it actually looks rubbish. I would prefer to be having a conversation with you or earning some money doing something else than I would do that. So it works out better value for me to free up that mental space. Free up that time.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:57 Yeah. Time is, you know, so precious, isn't it? And we're both very lucky to be able to have a cleaner, may I just add.

Nicole Howes 0:57:03 Absolutely, it's a very, it's a huge privilege.

Natalie Cassidy 0:59:17 Hi, Nat. Saw your story about the pod talking about teens. I have 3 children. My daughter is 21 and has just graduated related university. My son is 18 and is about to start Warwick University after getting A*AA in his A-levels.

Natalie Cassidy 0:59:31 Amazing. My youngest just failed all his GCSEs after 12 months of mental health issues and suicidal ideation after he was manipulated and blackmailed by a very disturbed girl he was briefly dating. Luckily, he's now on medication and we're getting him an autism assessment, and he's doing much better. They are all so, so different, but the key is communication. Please keep talking to your teens.

Natalie Cassidy 0:59:59 I know it's easy to let them be, keep your nose out of their affairs, and let them get on with things. But if my son didn't feel safe enough to come to me when there was a problem, I dread to think where we would be now. It doesn't bear thinking about. Also wanted to say I love the pod. I started in March, and I'm a year behind on episodes, but I try and listen as often as I can.

Natalie Cassidy 1:00:20 Thank you so much for— sharing all of that information. Goodness me. And it just shows you, doesn't it? You hear a story like that, 3 children, 3 completely different stories. You know, you can parent, you can be the parent, you can give the love, you can do all the same things, but everyone's route in life as a human being standing alone is gonna be different.

Natalie Cassidy 1:00:42 Interesting. And that's the other thing that I really think that we need to remember. We can do the best we can, but you should not hold guilt Yeah. Unless you have not been present and, you know, it's not been a good upbringing. Do you know what I mean?

Natalie Cassidy 1:00:56 Yeah. But you, you know, you can only do your best, though, and you've gotta let them find their own way.

Nicole Howes 1:01:02 Yeah, you, you're exactly right. You can only let them do what they do, and you can be there, and you can keep showing up. And like, that lady's had totally different outcomes just from experience and individuals.

Nicole Howes 1:01:13 So, there's definitely a lot of guilt that floats around. during these years. Yeah. You definitely had put a lot of pressure on yourself. And, but that was definitely part of the catalyst of writing the book was the guilt that I was feeling, like the self-judgment and the worry of like, have I done enough?

Nicole Howes 1:01:32 Like, what have I done up until this point? And like, where is that gonna end up? And I see that time and time again in the conversations that I'm having with parents, particularly moms. There is so, it's so heady in guilt. But we have to let it go.

Nicole Howes 1:01:47 Like you said, it has to, has to just wash over us because it doesn't serve us. And actually, it doesn't serve our children either to be caught up in that.

Natalie Cassidy 1:01:55 No, no, you're right. And I think also just that time, what that lady just said, it really struck a chord. And you've been saying it all morning, but you have to talk to your kids as much as you can. As much as you think, oh, they're growing up and they wanna be on their own, you've got to keep that connection. No. Because you won't know what's going on.

Nicole Howes 1:02:18 No, you have to push your way into their lives a little bit. Yeah.

Nicole Howes 1:02:20 Like, you have to be hands-off, but you have to kind of get under the skin of what's going on in their lives, even if they don't really know that you're doing that. I mean, I'm not suggesting that we need to be, like, spying on them from bushes and stuff, but we do need to have— I mean, yeah, literally, that's how I feel like I spend most of my life, to be honest. But it is about, Setting up those moments so you can kind of find out what's going on, and you can ask questions, and you can be as curious as possible. Like, even if they're like, oh God, leave me alone, like, stop going on about it.

Natalie Cassidy 1:02:54 The other thing I'd say is I have 2 completely, again, completely different human beings, 2 girls. Joni tells me everything, and I mean everything.

Nicole Howes 1:03:04 I have this.

Natalie Cassidy 1:03:05 She tells me everything. The whole day of school, every lesson, who spoke in class, who didn't, what she's done at lunchtime, things that she feels worried about. She just chats. And Eliza has never been like that. She's good. She will talk to me, but I know there's a lot that she'll probably think, oh, I don't need to tell her that.

Nicole Howes 1:03:25 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 1:03:25 And she's been like that since she was 8 years old. Yeah. It's not a teenage thing. It's just the way she is.

Nicole Howes 1:03:30 No. And sometimes it is a teenage thing. Sometimes they get to that point of like, they've always been the child that's told you everything. So you rely on that and you kind of let go let— you let yourself think, well, they'll tell me, they'll tell me if they need to, but— or they'll ask me the question. And actually, sometimes we have to go to them with the conversation rather than waiting for them to ask the question, because even if they've always been the child that's chatted and chatted and chatted, that can change. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 1:03:57 Hi, Nat.

Natalie Cassidy 1:03:58 Just, uh, seeing your, um, reel about teenagers, I just have a few words, and they are, what the I genuinely have no idea how to navigate this sometimes. And all I hear myself saying sometimes is, oh, you know, when I was a teenager, it's so different now. I don't think it's talked about enough, the hormones, and especially teenagers mixed with a menopausal household. That's another whole different ballgame, I think. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 1:04:30 I have to constantly stop myself from being a nagging old cow. I'm repeating myself. I'm sick of the sound of my own voice when teenagers are concerned. Um, but yeah, just what the fuck. That's all I carry with where teenagers— love the pod, love them all.

Natalie Cassidy 1:04:46 None of them my favourite because they're just all brilliant. Cheers, Shelley from Dover. Thanks, Shelley.

Nicole Howes 1:04:51 So I love that. That's bang on, isn't it?

Natalie Cassidy 1:04:56 Oh, Shelley, it's true. I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think we are discussing perimenopause and menopause, but not along with bringing up teenagers enough. The household filled with hormones and emotions is, it's a lot, isn't it?

Nicole Howes 1:05:13 Yeah, it definitely is.

Nicole Howes 1:05:14 And it can be a really hard one to navigate because actually at this time when we're perimenopausal, menopausal, actually we do need to give ourselves some time. And that's one thing I don't think you have. I don't think you have a lot of time Mm-hmm. Because teenagers take up a lot of space, like, mentally in your house. Um, there's a lot of planning what's coming next, checking they're okay, like, keeping on top of all of that stuff.

Nicole Howes 1:05:38 It's mentally, like, the resource needed for that is huge, let alone if you're then going through your own things, or you're forgetting stuff, you've got a bit of brain fog, or, like, your emotions are heightened. Whatever it is, just makes everything harder.

Natalie Cassidy 1:05:54 And also, your teenager can possibly see you changing. Yeah. And that's hard as well.

Nicole Howes 1:06:00 Yeah. And any additional strain on relationships as well at that stage, because, you know, you don't— relationships come into this situation where we have perimenopausal and menopausal feelings. You've then got teenagers in the mix who are up later and later and later in the evening, and it kind of squashes your time. If you're living at home with a partner, it'll squash the time that's available to you and them to just be on your own because they don't go to bed at 7 anymore. They'll be sitting there probably later than you are.

Natalie Cassidy 1:06:28 You're absolutely right.

Nicole Howes 1:06:30 That's a huge strain on relationships that I think gets completely overlooked.

Natalie Cassidy 1:06:33 I completely agree. And that evening that Mark and I used to get, you definitely don't get it anymore.

Nicole Howes 1:06:39 No.

Natalie Cassidy 1:06:39 You just don't, do you?

Nicole Howes 1:06:40 No, it just goes.

Natalie Cassidy 1:06:41 What I think about that is, how much I love the children.

Nicole Howes 1:06:47 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 1:06:48 And I'm not gonna moan about that because I know once Eliza's driving and is at college and, you know, how many, how many years have I got left actually of moaning that, oh, our evening, we'll have how many evenings together? Yeah. In the future.

Nicole Howes 1:07:01 This is it. Yeah. Won't know what to do with ourselves. Be like, is she coming round in a minute?

Natalie Cassidy 1:07:06 Yeah. I hope the girls are coming for dinner. Right, here we go. Last but not least. Morning, Natalie. I just thought I'd give a voice note in regards to the podcast that you you were doing regarding teenagers. Um, at the moment I've got a teenage daughter who—

Speaker K 1:07:23 she'll be 14 in January next year.

Natalie Cassidy 1:07:26 She's Year 9, um, currently. She's just gone into— and she has been struggling since, I would say, the end of Year 6 with going to school anxiety. And then Year 7, it kind of And back again.

Natalie Cassidy 1:07:44 And Year 8 was just— the attendance was really bad, and school wasn't really doing a lot for her. She dyed her hair a couple of times, and they complained about that. And then also, she has— I think there's a lot of influences on social media at that age for children. They will have to, like, confined to the same norms And like, they all have to have eyelashes, similar clothing, and that. And if they don't, it's like people are gonna, I don't know, not be their friend or something.

Natalie Cassidy 1:08:23 And I try and explain to her, like, you don't have to follow suit in everything. You're lovely as you are, without eyelashes and makeup and And obviously they have to do these TikToks and they try and do Snapchats and things, and it's just, just a scary world, I think. Oh, thank you for that. I, I— what I would say though about that is, again, it's all over the years. We all have come from a place where you want to be in part of the gang, part of the crew.

Natalie Cassidy 1:09:00 I don't know about you.

Nicole Howes 1:09:02 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Natalie Cassidy 1:09:03 I remember being at school, you wanna be in the cool gang.

Nicole Howes 1:09:06 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 1:09:06 Or if you're not in the cool gang, I wanted to be in the indie gang. So I think those sorts of things, those tribes, those groups have always been around. But when the lady said, oh, they have to do these TikToks and they have to do— they don't have to. But it's very, very hard that now, at schools. That's the thing, isn't it? If you're gonna be in videos, you need to look a certain way if you wanna join our gang. And then we're gonna be doing these dances. And I just think it might— I can't imagine what being a teenager is like now.

Nicole Howes 1:09:42 No, I think I do agree. I think the social pressures are probably more than they've ever been in a lot of ways. Of course, we had, we had trends and fashions and things that we had to do when we were teenagers as well. My eyebrows have never recovered from having the thinnest eyebrows in the world at that stage, I'm sure. I know, it's like we're eyebrow sisters.

Natalie Cassidy 1:10:04 We are.

Nicole Howes 1:10:05 But yeah, it's, it's sign of the times. But, and I do think these things will pass.

Nicole Howes 1:10:10 I think year on year these things will pass, and hopefully with the changes that are being made around social, there will be changes to that. Um, but right now all we can do is do what she's doing, reiterate that she's lovely as she is, she doesn't need to do this stuff. and still expect that she's probably gonna wanna do it anyway. Like, we're not going to be able to change that whole society setup as their parents telling them that they look beautiful as they are. But those messages are still just as important as they've always been.

Nicole Howes 1:10:40 Like, they have to be able to come home and know that they're safe and supported and loved just as they are. And as long as they know that, hopefully that will give some element of strength through situations that when society is piling on the pressure, Mm-hmm. So there's so much, again, coming around on social that I'm seeing, not let alone what the teenagers are seeing, as far as being the right sort of person, being the right sort of size, having the right sort of things. All of those things aren't going away anytime soon. So all we can do is be consistent in their home life.

Natalie Cassidy 1:11:12 Yeah. And don't be scared, I think, of saying, I picked Eliza up late the other night from a friend's house, and, I was driving and I thought something in my head and I thought, oh, why am I not saying that out loud? And I just turned around, she was sort of dozing 'cause it was late. And I said, I love picking you up in the car. I wish I could drive you around forever.

Nicole Howes 1:11:33 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 1:11:34 And she said, oh, that's a bit weird, but I like it.

Nicole Howes 1:11:38 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 1:11:39 I said, I mean it.

Nicole Howes 1:11:40 I like it is what I'm aiming for.

Natalie Cassidy 1:11:42 Yeah. I said this honestly. I said, I could just wish I could just drive you around forever knowing that you are safe next to me, you know.

Nicole Howes 1:11:50 Yeah. How nice is that, to have the opportunity to say that to your child though? Yeah. There's something really beautiful about that, isn't there? And those little small moments.

Natalie Cassidy 1:11:57 And I think you're right. I think they'll, they stick.

Nicole Howes 1:12:00 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 1:12:00 I think those little tiny moments that you think are a bit insignificant, they stick. And I think as long as you are telling them that they are, like you say, you love them so much, you cherish them, you're proud of them, you know, that's all you can do really.

Nicole Howes 1:12:14 Yeah, 100%. Keep telling your children that you love them.

Natalie Cassidy 1:12:17 Well, I can't thank you enough for this chat. I've absolutely loved it. I'm sure we'll get bundles and bundles more messages. 07788 20 19 19. Let us know your thoughts.

Natalie Cassidy 1:12:27 And once you hear it, if you've got any advice or questions that you would like Nicole to answer, perhaps we can do a cheeky Patreon ep with a few more Q&As or something, if you're up for it, Nicole. Yeah, of course, always. Brilliant. The link to Nicole's book will be be at the bottom of this episode. I'm gonna say it again, it's not a survival guide, and it really is something that you can open up.

Natalie Cassidy 1:12:49 It's not too much to handle. Again, you can just flick through and just read a page every now and again, and I think it will make you feel better. So thank you so, so much.

Nicole Howes 1:12:58 Thank you for having me.

Natalie Cassidy 1:12:59 Thank you so much, and I hope you have a great rest of the week and a lovely weekend.

Nicole Howes 1:13:03 Thank you.

Natalie Cassidy 1:13:04 Thanks, Nicole. Cheers.

Nicole Howes 1:13:07 Bye. Bye.