EP272: Natalie Cassidy’s Life with Nat… and Prime Minister Andy Burnham – let’s talk about care

Natalie Cassidy 0:02:07 Hello everybody and welcome to Life with Nat. I am in a very special You're not gonna believe it. I'm at 10 Downing Street, and I'm about to meet the Prime Minister. Yes, I know you're all screaming. 07788 20 19 19. Please let me know what you think of this. I am so proud of myself, and you know that usually I'm like, oh, it doesn't matter, nothing matters. This really mattered, and I can't wait to sit down and talk to Andy Burnham. So here we go. Prime Minister, welcome to Life with Nat.

Andy Burnham 0:02:58 Oh, thanks for letting me on Life with Nat.

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:01 Tell me, because when I got the email to say this was going to happen, yeah, firstly I thought it was a joke, and then I thought, why on earth would the Prime Minister want to talk to me? Why did you want to?

Andy Burnham 0:03:14 Because of what you have done in relation to your commitment to care and exploring the issues in relation to it, raising the profile of all of those things. Yeah, I'm fascinated by your, well, and the same that I share, my passion for seeing care and carers just having all of the issues they face talked about more. So I, you know, I think that's why we're here.

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:42 Well, thank you so much. Honestly, it's a complete honour. I had a lovely tour when I got here. Great, delighted to. So it's very exciting. Let's get straight into— Yeah. The National Care Service. Yeah. My listeners won't, A, won't believe you're with me talking. Mm-hmm. But I wanna do this in layman's terms. Yeah. Because I feel like a lot of people now aren't into politics. Mm-hmm. And we want to get to the people that haven't got an interest. Yeah. And we wanna simplify things.

Andy Burnham 0:04:06 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:07 I saw your conference speech. I thought it was fantastic. My brother David said it was the best speech he'd seen in over 50 years.

Andy Burnham 0:04:15 Oh, really?

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:15 Yeah. That's, that's what he said.

Andy Burnham 0:04:17 Thank you, David. Appreciate that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:17 So there we go.

Andy Burnham 0:04:18 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:19 In terms of the National Care Service that you are looking to do in 2030, we have a National Health Service.

Andy Burnham 0:04:26 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:27 Now, my dad was in and out of hospital. Yeah. I looked after him.

Andy Burnham 0:04:31 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:32 Me and my family had a rota. We would, we would go in, we would be there.

Andy Burnham 0:04:35 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:35 And what I loved is you talking about people being in hospital for too long.

Andy Burnham 0:04:39 Yeah. You'll know about that then, won't you?

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:41 My dad, honestly, he was in hospital For way too long.

Andy Burnham 0:04:45 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:45 And he didn't need to be there.

Andy Burnham 0:04:46 Yep. 100% relate to that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:48 So what I would love to know is how do you see it changing?

Andy Burnham 0:04:54 Well, that is a crucial question, Nat. And I think you've put your finger on the heart of it really.

Andy Burnham 0:05:01 Mm-hmm. Because what we have in this country is a situation where older people often are just drifting towards hospital because the care isn't right. at the front end in their home. And, and the people in the social care system, and I'm not criticising them at all, it's the, it's the broken nature of social care means they are often told if there's any problem, ring 999. Yes.

Andy Burnham 0:05:26 Because then you're passing somebody over, but there's, you can be confident that then they'll be supported there. But it's not the right place for them. So the system is underfunded at the preventative end, But then the tide is dragging people towards the expensive end of the system. That's wrong for those people, wrong for their families. It's not great for the nurses who are then dealing with all of the pressure that they're— And the strain and— Yeah, it, it's working the wrong way round.

Andy Burnham 0:05:55 And I've really, like you, same experience. In fact, my brothers would go as far as saying that they had to move heaven and earth to try and keep him out of hospital. 'Cause it's like a vortex. Once you're kind of in it, it just— Yeah. It just drags you in.

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:09 You can't get out of it. And I remember Dad going to a respite home for a little while.

Andy Burnham 0:06:13 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:14 Which was actually appalling. I, I was scared to leave him there.

Andy Burnham 0:06:17 Right. From, from hospital. From hospital. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:19 And then we got him some physio.

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:22 And this is the part I don't understand. This is what I wanna know. Because when he came out, we had a physiotherapist pop in every now and again. Yeah. We had an occupational therapist come round to sort out, does he need bars and stuff for the loo?

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:34 In his home as well. In my home. 'Cause he came to live with me. Came to live with you. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:36 So those things were in place. What— how, what— how are you going to link the two up? Because a lot of people are saying the NHS, you know, is pretty broken at the moment. Yeah. Should you not be fixing that before creating a new service?

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:51 And I think that's what people are asking.

Andy Burnham 0:06:53 And I understand why they would put it like that, but the two are intrinsically linked. So broken social care is a major part of the problems that we're seeing in the National Health service. Mm-hmm. Because people are going into hospital unnecessarily, adding to the pressure.

Andy Burnham 0:07:13 But then if you, you know, take any given day, uh, in hospitals in England, you're, you're looking at, I think it's thousands, possibly tens of thousands of people medically fit to leave hospital, but unable to go home because the care isn't, isn't there. Mm-hmm. So, in the end, The health service can't recover to where we would all want it to be when social care is is delivering so much pressure onto the NHS, and the answer that I'm putting forward is the whole of this system from home to hospital and back again should work to the same principles of care that is is there for people. It's preventative, it's of high quality, and it supports people in the best place for them in terms of their. physical and mental health and their social wellbeing.

Andy Burnham 0:08:05 Mm-hmm. The problem we've got is it's not like that at the moment. You know, care at the front end is charged for, means tested, and it's often very poor standard because of the failure to invest at that level. Hence, it can't be made to work in people's homes. And then you've got all of that dragged towards the NHS and all of the pressure that it brings.

Andy Burnham 0:08:27 So therefore, the NHS can't be what we would want it to be Because of the pressure until you fix the social care.

Natalie Cassidy 0:08:32 Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:08:33 And you have to have a situation where both the care system and the health service are talking the same language. So you can just optimise. If somebody does have to go into hospital because of an infection, the minute they're ready to come home, they should be home straight away.

Natalie Cassidy 0:08:46 And that's all linked up and it's, you know. Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:08:48 And no delay and all linked up and all working to the same set of principles.

Natalie Cassidy 0:08:52 It's a huge undertaking.

Andy Burnham 0:08:54 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:08:55 And we hear leaders talking the talk all the time. Mm-hmm. Do you really think you can deliver it?

Andy Burnham 0:09:02 Well, I'm gonna give everything I've got to delivering it, because if I go back 25 years ago when I was a new MP, I saw my gran go through the care system, and I talked about this at the conference. Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:09:14 In the speech, you, you were kind enough to mention, and it wasn't good enough then. And I remember saying, I said it as a, as a minister, I was a health Minister, Health Secretary. Yeah. I said, you know, I cannot accept that my parents' generation should go through the same broken care system that my grandmother went through. Mhmm.

Andy Burnham 0:09:34 I tried to fix it back then. This was 2009, 2010. And here we are 15 years later, and politicians of my generation have shown utter cowardice when it comes to this issue. You know, what could be more basic than the care we give to each other to care for each other's parents, people who are vulnerable. And politics is saying it can't fix it, it's too difficult to fix.

Andy Burnham 0:10:00 Well, I just don't accept that that is the case. Well, you said you're going to rip the plaster off.

Natalie Cassidy 0:10:04 You've got to go in, haven't you?

Andy Burnham 0:10:05 Yeah, you do. You've got to do difficult things. And I've started with what I've said about the triple lock, but that's not taking something away from pensioners.

Natalie Cassidy 0:10:12 People do think this, don't they? You know, I'm a regular listener to LBC. I'm one of you, and you're listening away. People feel like you're going to take something away to give. Can you explain that? Explain to me again about the triple lock and how that's going to work, because everything's remaining the same, isn't it, for this Parliament at the moment?

Andy Burnham 0:10:29 For this Parliament, it's still remaining the same. And the reason why I've done it like that is to protect trust in politics, because, you know, that was in the manifesto, and therefore I'm not going to sort of break that promise. But what it means is The triple lock would change in 2030. And the reason why I think it is right to do that, the triple lock at the moment, the 3 things in that lock are pensions should go up by average earnings.

Natalie Cassidy 0:10:56 Yep.

Andy Burnham 0:10:56 Prices or inflation. Mm-hmm. Or 2.5%. 2.5%. Yeah. So what that is doing is it's what people say ratcheting up the pension. So the pension is going up and up and up. Mm-hmm. Because every year, one of those things is taking it to the highest level. So the pension by 2030 would be at record, record levels. And it is about maintaining it at that good level by having an adjusted triple lock. So you have prices and 2.5% are still the annual thing that you're using. Mhm. But over time you'd keep adjusting it so it's still keeping pace with earnings as well. But that does save money.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:38 Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:11:38 It starts to unlock significant billions, and that goes to the National Care Service. And I think that, in the end, is a better deal for pensioners.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:47 You'd hope, you'd hope people would think that. You know, they'd think, actually—

Andy Burnham 0:11:51 The polls seem to suggest that people did understand what I— which is great. And I'm so grateful that people have engaged with what I'm saying, because sometimes politics works in these soundbites, and I put forward something quite complicated there. But you have to if you're going to solve this issue. And the thing is, if you just think about someone's pension, people pay care charges from that pension. That pension is means tested if you need care.

Natalie Cassidy 0:12:14 Absolutely. Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:12:15 And then you'll know about it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:12:16 Well, I know. Yeah. My dad, he didn't have major amounts of money in the bank, but he had— he was over that threshold. Yeah. And then we had to pay, and he didn't have much, so I helped. And— But you see what I mean?

Andy Burnham 0:12:26 So if you just look at the pension and not at the care, yeah, in the end, you're not properly looking after older people, and particularly in this century, you know, where people will be living longer, and that's a really good thing. You want a system that gives them full peace of mind, don't you? That you don't have to have, you know, a situation where we're paying from our parents' bank accounts or, you know, all of that quite complicated stuff about power of attorney. I don't know if you had to go through that with your dad, but— Yes. That's not a great thing.

Natalie Cassidy 0:12:54 Well, I, I think with any, when any illness happens, you are in pieces. You and your family are going through the worst time ever, as you well know. And then you have all of that other stuff to deal with.

Andy Burnham 0:13:06 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:07 And it would just be so wonderful that that would be taken away. Well, completely. And it would all work together.

Andy Burnham 0:13:12 Completely. And that is part of it. You know, I would like a system where you don't have to worry about that stuff. Mhmm. You know, because the care is provided, as I say, like NHS care when you need it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:24 But let's be honest. Mm-hmm. And I go back to my experience with Dad.

Andy Burnham 0:13:27 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:28 I think there was a day where maybe I'd not been at the hospital for 3 hours.

Andy Burnham 0:13:33 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:34 And I walked into my dad and he, he looked horrendous. Uh-huh. And we'd found out that unfortunately the saline drip hadn't been changed. Yeah. And if I hadn't walked in at that time, Mm-hmm. I really don't know what would've happened. And me and my family sit around tables now and say, if it wasn't for us, Mm-hmm. we believe we prolonged Dad's life 4 or 5 years. Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:13:54 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:54 Mistakes happen. I know because of the strain.

Andy Burnham 0:13:57 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:58 When Dad was in hospital in wards, I'd be, I'm a talker, I love people. And you'd have these— I'm getting that. You know, I chatter. And there'd be an old boy in a bed across the road and he'd be on his own all day. And you know, you'd be brokenhearted. And I'd say, I'd go down and get him a Lucozade. Yeah. Go down and get him a nourishment drink. And you'd end up making friends.

Andy Burnham 0:14:18 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:14:20 People that are on their own with no one, how is this gonna work? How is the government, you and your team, going to know every single individual who is in hospital or at home what they need? That's my biggest thing.

Andy Burnham 0:14:33 Yeah. I mean, it, it gets harder, doesn't it, if people don't have that support? Anybody. What I would say is I think we've also gotta make it better for family carers. So in my situation, I think my mum did feel like she was on her own at times. I mean, she would ring us for support, but we weren't always there because of the jobs me and my brothers do. Yeah. But sometimes people are struggling alone. She was getting the 15-minute care visits. But as my dad's needs got bigger, they just weren't enough to cover the— and then it would unleash chaos, actually, and she would then have to pick up all the pieces and—

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:13 And also, if your mum can't have a little bit of respite and time, you can't look after anyone else.

Andy Burnham 0:15:18 Well, exactly. But that's what was happening. I think sometimes, I, I hate to put it this way, but— No, go on. Sometimes people look at the person who's got the dementia or whatever it might be, and they don't see what's happening to the person around who's, you know, and I think if we're honest, we took a while to work out that my mum really couldn't, was not in a sustainable position.

Andy Burnham 0:15:41 What we've gotta get to, in my view, is a very different model of home care, people being supported in their own— in their own home. And it's a model that's going to help family carers make it sustainable. It can't be done in this broken-down 15-minute visit situation.

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:59 No.

Andy Burnham 0:15:59 But the thing is, when people will ask me, well, how do you pay for it? The cost that you can release from the NHS by having a more preventative model of care in people's homes is significant. Significant billions can be released from that. I do think it should be very person-centred, to pick up your point. The best social care should look at the whole person.

Natalie Cassidy 0:16:22 Always. I did my course on— in health and social care. I went to Stevenage College. Yeah. And I did a Level 3 and I got a distinction, just so you know. And I'd not been to a school. I said at the start to you, it's amazing what you've done. Thank you.

Andy Burnham 0:16:34 No, genuinely. Thank you. And I think the fact that you're talking about these issues—

Natalie Cassidy 0:16:39 for me, sitting with you today, It's not about politics. No. It's about a subject that I'm so passionate about. Yeah. Because as you say, we will all need care. Yeah. We're all gonna go through it with a loved one. Yeah. Or ourselves. Yeah. It doesn't really matter who's sitting here. No disrespect to you. I'd be saying the same thing. No, of course. It's very, very important. Yeah, of course.

Andy Burnham 0:16:58 You know? And as I was saying to you though before, if politics can't fix something as fundamental as this, then people will rightly say, well, what use is it? What can it, what can it do? Yeah. And the thing I want to just say is, a shout out again for the people who work in social care.

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:14 Ah, well, we're gonna get onto that.

Andy Burnham 0:17:15 Are we? I hope so. I promise you, 'cause that's the, that's the biggie. That was the thing that really stays with me. God, be honest, I was at my dad's funeral on Friday and it's still— I'm so sorry. Not quite there after it. You know, it's still, you know, you know what I mean when I, when I say that. But some of his carers who were in his care home were there and I just think—

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:35 They're angels.

Andy Burnham 0:17:37 It's incredible though, isn't it? But they're, trying to live on poverty pay, because that's what it is, caring for other people's parents, holding a broken system together, and they can still turn up at his funeral. I'm just like, it's unbelievable how badly they've been let down by the people in my profession over a long, long time.

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:55 I was a sandwich carer, a term which I only found out when I did my course.

Andy Burnham 0:18:00 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:01 I had 2 young daughters. Yeah. I had a full-time job at EastEnders.

Andy Burnham 0:18:04 Yeah. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:05 And I had my Dad. Yeah. I was pulling my hair out. You know, and all my brothers, again, like yourself, everyone's got careers, busy. And I found a, a local private carer. Mm-hmm. And I was lucky enough to be able to pay her, you know, afford it.

Andy Burnham 0:18:18 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:19 And she was our angel.

Andy Burnham 0:18:21 Yeah. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:21 I don't know what I would've done without her.

Andy Burnham 0:18:23 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:23 Getting onto the, the, the carers before we do that.

Andy Burnham 0:18:27 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:28 You just spoke about your dad. Mm-hmm. And I am a caring person. Mhmm. You've landed the biggest job in the country. You've moved. You've relocated. And you've had a huge loss. Mhmm. I am very, very sorry, but you had 2 days off. Mhmm. And now you're here with me after the funeral. How are you feeling? Just forget— just put it all out the way. How are you?

Andy Burnham 0:18:54 I said last week, I don't want to seek sympathy through it, you know, because I don't know. You know, I've got a big job to do, and I've got, you know, I am focused on it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:19:04 I know, but you are a human being as well, Prime Minister. Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:19:07 Thank you.

Andy Burnham 0:19:07 And it's been hard just because, you know, when I walked up that street for the first time to come into this place, you know, I knew that my dad was, you know, reaching the end of his journey. And it was hard. And I, you know, my mum was on the street and everything, you know, so, The coming together of those 2 things has made a hard— what would have been a hard thing intensely hard at times. And particularly, actually, I found it most hard in many ways in the last few days.

Andy Burnham 0:19:41 But I'm not saying it to seek sympathy. And actually, I have drawn some power from it because I put that power into my conference speech. You did.

Natalie Cassidy 0:19:48 You were so passionate. And I just thought to myself, Everything you were saying about care and the passion that you had. Yeah. It's because of what you've been through with your dad, Roy.

Andy Burnham 0:19:59 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:19:59 And, and you can see it.

Andy Burnham 0:20:00 I hope you didn't feel it was wrong because I, I, I was— No.

Andy Burnham 0:20:02 You know, you always are conscious in this position that I'm in that, oh, you're using it for effect. No, it's not. That's happened at this time. It's just not your— it's very, very— I had to decide. You know, I thought, well, you know, I could give a speech without referencing it, but that wouldn't be me, to be honest.

Andy Burnham 0:20:16 I, I just— No. I'm not that kind of person. No. So I felt I had to, but also to channel it for the good of those carers that we were talking about a moment ago, you know, to speak speak about the people who cared for him.

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:26 Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:20:27 I was aware of, you know, people working in social care. Yes. But it's only when you watch them caring for your own mum or your own dad that you see what they do through new eyes. And—

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:38 I completely, completely agree.

Andy Burnham 0:20:39 The warmth, the humour, the humanity, the skill, the professionalism. The empathy. The empathy is probably the word that—

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:46 And everyone I've seen in care, the placements I've done, it's everybody has empathy. And you just— how, you know, we want—

Andy Burnham 0:20:53 Some of the best people in this country, aren't they? And they are, to be honest, they're kind of the heart and soul of the country.

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:58 They are the heart and soul, and we need to treat them better.

Andy Burnham 0:21:01 We do.

Natalie Cassidy 0:21:01 Are you planning on the National Care Service for better pay? Are you planning on this? Because you want people to go into this passionately and see it as a lifelong career, not as down in the gutter. You know what I mean?

Andy Burnham 0:21:14 I'm not going to avoid that question because that is a crucial question. And the answer is yes. So if you talk about integrating these 2 systems, health and social care. I think it starts by having an integrated workforce. And particularly having a situation where a younger person perhaps could start off in care, but then progress up through the bands and perhaps go into—

Natalie Cassidy 0:21:36 Managerial or— Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:21:38 Or into the NHS or into nursing or physio or—

Natalie Cassidy 0:21:41 Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:21:41 So that there's progression from— so at the moment, it can feel like a dead end. Exactly. Yeah. Profession because it's treated very differently to people who are on the NHS pay progression system.

Andy Burnham 0:21:55 So for me, the first thing is you do— you integrate it. Yeah. And if you're going to get the quality preventative care in people's homes that I was talking about, people have to have a degree of security in their life to be able to do it. So this is the thing, isn't it? How do they do what they do if you If you've not got security in your own life, how are you gonna pass on a sense of security to the people in your care?

Andy Burnham 0:22:19 At the moment, one of, you know, people who was caring for my dad was actually technically homeless, living, you know, in a, you know, I think a mobile home at the time.

Natalie Cassidy 0:22:31 Right.

Andy Burnham 0:22:31 And it's like—

Natalie Cassidy 0:22:32 That's crazy, isn't it?

Andy Burnham 0:22:34 But how? You know, it's just all the more miraculous that people, could do what they do and still convey a sense of, um, security to my dad when their own life was in that. But how have we let this happen? Honestly, is the way I, I keep thinking about it. How have we let it happen? Well, that people are in that position providing that service have pretty much nothing of security in their own home life.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:00 Well, Prime Minister, you're here now, and you are very, very passionate, and I genuinely wish you all the success in, in getting this done. And I look forward to meeting with you and chatting with you again, and I'm gonna keep my hand in.

Andy Burnham 0:23:15 Well, I'm really grateful to you. Honestly, I am. And your podcast and what you've built and your own commitment by going and training and putting yourself in the shoes of the kind of people I was just talking about.

Andy Burnham 0:23:26 I think that's an amazing thing that you've, that you've done. And it won't be an easy road from here to the National Care Service. I'm just gonna be honest about that. No. And I think people listening or watching this will know But I want to keep explaining why I'm doing it and what is at stake and how we're going to do it, just to take people with, you know, I will need people to come with me on this journey.

Andy Burnham 0:23:48 Mm-hmm. So I would love to come back on periodically to, to tell you how I'm getting on with it. I do think we need to, um, think about it from first principles. I'm not sure as a society we're set up at all yet to support people with dementia. It's—

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:05 No.

Andy Burnham 0:24:05 A shocking journey, really, when you, you get a diagnosis and then you're told, but there's nothing we can do, you know.

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:12 You're on your own, aren't you?

Andy Burnham 0:24:13 You are. You know, we, we have a situation where the world is set up to support, you know, when you hear the word cancer and everything clicks in and— Yes. And that's great and it should be like that. But we won't be ready for the 21st century until we support people with dementia as well as we support people with cancer. And that in the end is, is what we've got to do.

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:34 Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Andy Burnham 0:24:36 You're so welcome. Thank you to you. Thank you for coming in.

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:38 May I grab just those silly bonuses?

Andy Burnham 0:24:41 Yeah, of course. Just really quick. They're so silly, but they're just my listeners. It might be boring.

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:45 It's not boring. They're gonna love it. My listeners will go, oh, there it is.

Andy Burnham 0:24:48 No worries. No worries.

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:49 Prime Minister, how do you take your tea?

Andy Burnham 0:24:51 Strong.

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:52 Yep.

Andy Burnham 0:24:53 Northern. No sugar. Milk in first, which annoys everybody, but I don't know why, but I mean— You're looking fabulous. I know.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:02 Do we leave the tea bag in for a good while?

Andy Burnham 0:25:04 Good while. Fantastic.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:06 Yeah. Do you like to cook?

Andy Burnham 0:25:08 I do. I'm actually pretty good.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:10 Oh, brilliant.

Andy Burnham 0:25:11 Yeah, even though I say it myself.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:12 Is it kind of your relaxation? 'Cause it's mine.

Andy Burnham 0:25:15 It's partly that, yeah. I do, obviously with maybe a beer or two at the same time. A little glass of wine on the side. Yeah, yeah. But no, I do enjoy doing that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:24 What's your favourite meal to cook?

Andy Burnham 0:25:25 I'm a pretty good roast cooker. Oh, Sundays. Yeah, I do enjoy roasts. It's a bit of a hassle, a roast though, isn't it? Oh, it's—

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:33 but it's a long day in the kitchen with the radio on.

Andy Burnham 0:25:35 I know, I like it. I like it. It's fantastic. It's part of my routine. I can do a pretty good curry as well.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:42 Favourite meat with a roast, sorry? Beef, always beef. Beef, always beef.

Andy Burnham 0:25:44 Yeah, yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:46 Television. Yes. Do you get any time at all to watch telly? And if so, what are you watching?

Andy Burnham 0:25:52 I do a bit. I couldn't— this is where it could get very boring, 'cause— In my job, I just wanna switch off from everything. So what's the kind of programme where you're just not gonna get any politics coming in? I just watch sport of any kind. I know that's a predictable answer, but I do. No, it's not, no. I will literally, I can get into anything.

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:17 Any sport?

Andy Burnham 0:26:18 Any sport. You know, the Winter Olympics, I'm into the curling, I'm into the—

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:22 Do you like the darts at Christmas?

Andy Burnham 0:26:23 I do. I very much like the darts at Christmas. That's a staple in our house. Got Luke Littler from not far from me, so we're always, We're always behind him. Oh, brilliant. But yeah, Rugby League, I was watching last weekend. Obviously Liverpool. And you're a huge Everton fan. I am a huge Everton fan.

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:39 I'm an Arsenal fan, I'm afraid, so we won't chat.

Andy Burnham 0:26:41 Did your dad leave that behind for you? He did. Mine did for me. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we had no choice at all about that. But we're pleased to see Mikel Arteta doing a good job for you.

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:51 Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you very much. I mean, I'm not massively au fait. I used to walk up to Highbury. I'm from Islington, so I used to wander up the road and I've got great memories. But—

Andy Burnham 0:27:00 What are the majority of the EastEnders? Are they all Arsenal or is it—

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:03 There's a few Arsenal, quite a few Spurs. West Ham, no? Lots of West Ham. Yeah. Lots of West Ham.

Andy Burnham 0:27:08 You would associate it with West Ham. Yeah. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:11 Yeah. Thank you so much. No worries. Silly bonus questions that my listeners will love. And this is a present for you.

Andy Burnham 0:27:16 Thank you.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:16 That is a trolley token. A life without trolley token.

Andy Burnham 0:27:19 What? When you've not got a pound? When you haven't got a pound. Oh, that's a, that's a brilliant thing. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:23 All right.

Andy Burnham 0:27:24 The Lidl near me where I live keeps catching me out. Although, yeah. I won't now, so I will be all right.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:31 Thank you.

Andy Burnham 0:27:31 Thanks very much. Thank you, Prime Minister.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:33 Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, there we go. I have just given Andy Burnham a little cuddle. I've said goodbye to him, and just what a lovely man. And you know that I speak to everybody as they are sat in the lounge. You know, it's a family pod, as you know. He reminded me a lot of my brothers, David and Tony, because of his age. And we've just had a really lovely, kind, warm chat. honest chat, and I really do wish him every success. And remember, 077 88 20 19 19. Let me know what you thought of it, and I'll see you very soon. I'm off for a lie down. I can't believe it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:30:10 So I had my lie down.

Scott (co-host) 0:30:15 Yes. And how are you feeling now after that?

Natalie Cassidy 0:30:18 I didn't really ever lie down. No. I was continuously on the phone and talking to you on the phone on the drive home. And yeah, just a very excitable afternoon.

Scott (co-host) 0:30:29 Excitable afternoon?

Natalie Cassidy 0:30:31 Yeah. Well, morning. Yeah. It was, uh, yeah, I can't believe I genuinely sitting here now listening to it, watching it, I can't believe I was in 10 Downing Street.

Scott (co-host) 0:30:45 Why?

Natalie Cassidy 0:30:45 Because who would have ever thought 2 and a half years ago that that would have been the case when we started this? How on earth have I got to interview the Prime Minister?

Scott (co-host) 0:30:59 Well, I think we need to go into that because that, that is— I mean, you're not wrong, it's the most random thing ever. I've been going around telling people about it I mean, on the day itself, I was with someone who knows you very well, and she was stood, like, right next to me, and, uh, at work. She's— she was an actress, and she had to keep starting this scene from standing next to me, and I couldn't not tell her.

Speaker M 0:31:31 Mm-hmm.

Scott (co-host) 0:31:31 And I said, you'll never guess what Natalie's doing right now.

Speaker N 0:31:35 And then she'd, like, do a take.

Scott (co-host) 0:31:38 Come back again. She'd be like, what you doing? Get to do the next task. Well, have a guess who's, who's asked to be on the podcast. I think she'd do the, like, you know, do another take. And if she come back and say, I don't know. And she get— and do you know something really funny? I've said to a couple of people, you'll never guess who Natalie has got on the podcast. Mm-hmm. Do you know, 4 people now have said, Is it Ricky Gervais?

Natalie Cassidy 0:32:05 I, yeah, well, you did. Exactly. In the kitchen when I first got the email through, you got home from work and I said, I'm so, I absolutely can't believe this. Yeah. Who do you think it's about? The podcast? There was words to that effect.

Scott (co-host) 0:32:21 I don't think you quite said it like that. No. You said, you're never going to believe in a million years who's contacted contacted me to get on the podcast?

Natalie Cassidy 0:32:31 Everyone has said Ricky Gervais straight away.

Scott (co-host) 0:32:36 Really?

Natalie Cassidy 0:32:37 Most people have said that to you as well? Most people have said Ricky Gervais. Yeah, because they know I love him. But how funny. This is such a different thing. And obviously, it is a lot to do with my care documentary and because of the Prime Minister's plight, if you like, for the National Care Service. So it all just sort of slotted into place.

Scott (co-host) 0:32:57 Was there a little bit of you that thought maybe the WhatsApp number's like one digit out from the Newsnight one? Or yeah, maybe there's some little error that's happened somewhere?

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:09 I, I genuinely, I, I think his team are obviously very, very good and they're very astute and they're on top of things.

Scott (co-host) 0:33:16 Do you think one of them or two of them are maybe listeners?

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:19 I'd hope so.

Andy Burnham 0:33:21 Strange.

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:22 They were very, very lovely people.

Andy Burnham 0:33:24 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:25 But maybe someone caught a bit of the documentary and put two and two together. I'm not sure. Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:33:29 Maybe.

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:29 But to sit in 10 Downing Street with the Prime Minister and to talk to him for half an hour was really, really special. I felt very nervous. You know, I get nervous about everything. So at the beginning, I did feel a bit nervous when he came in. But after 2 minutes, I could have been sat with you. I kind of wish he was in here.

Scott (co-host) 0:33:53 Uh, it would have been a bit much though, wouldn't it, for him to come and come to ours to do it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:58 Yeah, he's quite busy.

Scott (co-host) 0:34:00 Probably saved a bit of time you going there. Did it go really quickly when you were talking to him?

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:06 It felt like 5 minutes. Yeah, I couldn't believe it when someone was sort of saying, wind it up now, right? It's obviously his schedule's so tight. Yeah, I thought, I've not even scratch the surface of what I wanted to do.

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:19 But I think, I think, you know, I think we did well. And I think the content was good. And I think people will enjoy it, even if they're not political, I hope. I said, I think it's really important for people to listen to be— a lot of people don't like politics. No.

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:36 They're not into it. And I think it's nice for politicians to be able to come onto podcasts. And it's another of getting to people that maybe wouldn't watch Newsnight or listen to The Rest Is Politics, for instance. So, I think it's a very clever move. And his team are very, very clever about his social media as well.

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:56 They know that's the way to go.

Scott (co-host) 0:34:57 But also, you know, it was a really interesting chat that you had with him. And it was nice to hear the policies and the ideas moving forward on what is really quite a serious subject. You're not really chatting politics, are you?

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:14 No.

Scott (co-host) 0:35:14 I mean, it would— it could have been any other person.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:16 That's what I said.

Scott (co-host) 0:35:17 And, you know, it doesn't really— it's not a political thing, is it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:21 No.

Scott (co-host) 0:35:22 You've just happened to speak to the person who happens to be the Prime Minister at the moment.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:26 Yeah, because the cause is greater than anything to do with politics.

Scott (co-host) 0:35:30 And it's an area that you fully understand because you've, you've not only recorded a huge documentary on the whole thing, you're qualified in, in that exact sector, and it's something that's very dear to your heart because of your experience with your dad. So, I mean, all joking aside, I mean, it's a very— it's crazy that he came on your podcast, but at the same time, you are exactly the right person for it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:56 Yeah. He also said that, you know, he wants to come on every now and again to tell me how it's going.

Scott (co-host) 0:36:03 Well, he did say that, but that was before he had to debrief with his people afterwards. So, I mean, he might be up for that. You might have to message him directly as opposed to—

Natalie Cassidy 0:36:14 Drop him a little DM. Maybe. Yeah. I think he's so passionate about it and he, he really enjoyed our conversation. Yeah. And he knows how passionate I am. And he also knows that I'm someone in the public eye and I've got followers and all of that. I genuinely think he will keep me up to date.

Scott (co-host) 0:36:32 Well, I think the fact that he chose to come on your podcast speaks volumes about your listeners. Because at the end of the day, the only reason he could possibly go on your podcast is to speak to your listeners.

Natalie Cassidy 0:36:44 It's true.

Scott (co-host) 0:36:44 So I think everyone listening to this needs to bear that in mind. Obviously a valued member of the audience.

Natalie Cassidy 0:36:49 Well, I'd love to— I, I would really love to hear everybody's thoughts. I said it in my outro at Downing Street, but honestly, everybody, 07788 20 19 19, listen to it. It's obviously a very different podcast to what we usually do sat in here. But I would love to hear from carers and people who have cared or, or are caring and what you think about it. Because, you know, it could, it could be really, really good. And we just have to see. We just have to see what happens.

Scott (co-host) 0:37:21 Sorry, when you say could be very good, for policies that he's pushing through?

Natalie Cassidy 0:37:25 The National Care Service that he is wanting to introduce would be really great. I just don't know how we get there. I don't know how we get there.

Scott (co-host) 0:37:34 Yeah, well, that was one of, one of the questions that you posed was sort of how do you address it? And he did say that the 2 things kind of go hand in hand.

Natalie Cassidy 0:37:43 Yeah, he did say they were intrinsic, but at the same time the National Health Service needs a lot of work also. Yes.

Scott (co-host) 0:37:49 So, but I liked— I have to say, I thought there was a lot in him suggesting that going for the National Care Service would, how it would, how it would relieve some of the stresses on the NHS.

Andy Burnham 0:38:01 Yes, absolutely. Which is a fair point.

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:02 Very much so.

Scott (co-host) 0:38:03 So as, as with all of these things, in theory they work excellently. It's just how you implement it and how they work in practice, isn't it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:13 And they have got, I listened to LBC after doing the podcast and there's lots of different cogs now that they're talking about to try and release some money. for it. So they're not just saying it, they are thinking about where is the money gonna come from, 'cause it's billions and billions.

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:30 But they are thinking about it. So we'll see. But I thoroughly enjoyed going there. I thought he was really human, a nice human being. And he's just had a huge loss of his father, and he only had his father's funeral the Friday before the Wednesday that I saw him.

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:51 So, you know, he had about 2 days off, I think, after his dad died. So again, he's cracking on with stuff, going through a lot. And that's why I asked him, the fact that he'd relocated, got the biggest job ever, and lost someone, how you doing? Hmm. It's quite important to just put everything else aside and look at a human being, I feel.

Natalie Cassidy 0:39:12 But even after the interview, which obviously I think people might like, you know, the microphones went down, but he did stand with me for a good 5 minutes.

Scott (co-host) 0:39:21 It's a shame really, because that could have been more of a chat, couldn't it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:39:24 I know. But, you know, it was what it was. But he didn't rush out. And we were talking and spoke to him about his father and—

Scott (co-host) 0:39:32 That's when he found out he was, you know, he was going off to like a little party or he was gonna go to the cinema then and—

Natalie Cassidy 0:39:39 No, I think he had quite an important afternoon ahead, actually. Did he? Have you, have you seen what's been going on this week?

Andy Burnham 0:39:45 What, the news?

Natalie Cassidy 0:39:46 He's, he's had quite a lot going on.

Andy Burnham 0:39:48 I have. Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:39:49 Yeah.

Andy Burnham 0:39:49 I do, I do watch it. I certainly do not subscribe to LBC though, Natalie.

Scott (co-host) 0:39:54 You need to give that up.

Natalie Cassidy 0:39:55 I'm not giving it up. Be so rude. Getting a bit obsessed with that. No. I love my Nick Ferrari in the morning. James O'Brien at 10. I won't carry on because you'll have a go at me.

Andy Burnham 0:40:10 Yeah, I mean, a little bit of Sheila. What a lot. Don't get me started. Tom at 4. It's really annoying.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:17 Andrew Marr at 6. You can't go wrong.

Andy Burnham 0:40:18 Really annoying. There's people in jail.

Scott (co-host) 0:40:21 There are people listening to this screaming.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:24 I like it because you do.

Scott (co-host) 0:40:26 What I love about it, it's for anyone listening who doesn't know what we're talking about, because it's very London-centric as well. Well, yeah, it's a London radio station. where they just talk politics continually until it's the most depressing thing you could possibly imagine.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:44 Well, it really is. I like it because it's balanced and you get different views from different people.

Andy Burnham 0:40:51 It depends what show you're listening to.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:53 Yeah, well, that's what I mean. But throughout the day it is balanced, I'd say.

Andy Burnham 0:40:56 I don't think he took kindly when you said you're an LBC listener either.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:59 I'm not sure. I bet he whacks it on.

Andy Burnham 0:41:00 I bet he doesn't.

Natalie Cassidy 0:41:01 I reckon he does.

Andy Burnham 0:41:02 But he said the last thing he wants to do No, he's listening to politics. I mean, trust me, he doesn't listen to what we say.

Natalie Cassidy 0:41:08 No. Fair enough.

Andy Burnham 0:41:09 Really not. Last thing he's gonna do. I can't do it, and I, I don't work in politics.

Natalie Cassidy 0:41:15 Well, you know that I've always really liked Question Time and Newsnight, haven't I?

Scott (co-host) 0:41:20 Did a little bit of you feel like you were kind of, you know, Jeremy Paxman? Maybe not Jeremy Paxman.

Natalie Cassidy 0:41:26 Laura Kuenssberg?

Scott (co-host) 0:41:27 Yeah. A political, you know, A little bit.

Natalie Cassidy 0:41:33 And then I thought, I really enjoy that, and maybe that's what I would have done. Maybe I would have gone to— I wonder if I would have done politics at university.

Andy Burnham 0:41:40 I don't know.

Natalie Cassidy 0:41:42 But I do really— I did enjoy it.

Scott (co-host) 0:43:38 And how did you feel? You know, I said to you that when you walk past Downing Street.

Natalie Cassidy 0:43:45 Yes.

Scott (co-host) 0:43:46 I said, lucky. Once a year, I often do that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:43:50 So you go through the Black Gate.

Scott (co-host) 0:43:52 Yes.

Natalie Cassidy 0:43:53 You know, turnstiles, and you go through that airport bit.

Scott (co-host) 0:43:55 Yes. And then you're through. Yes.

Natalie Cassidy 0:43:57 It's like a film set, isn't it?

Scott (co-host) 0:43:59 Yes. And what's funny, the first time I walked through, you go, you go through the bit where people sort of gawp through the railings, and you just— there's normally a policeman there, and you—

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:09 There was loads of people there, quite a lot of protesters. Yes, that's usually the case.

Scott (co-host) 0:44:14 Lots of shouting, lots of protesters there, funnily enough. And you go through the gate And then, as you say, you go through like an airport-style detector, and, and by the time you got yourself all back together and you've done the scans, you're sort of all of a sudden walking out and you glance over and all you actually are now in front of Number 10.

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:32 Well, I, I, I found it quite interesting because I went through and I thought, well, where is it? There's a little walk, isn't there, to find it?

Andy Burnham 0:44:38 Oh, really?

Scott (co-host) 0:44:39 The first time I saw it, it was suddenly there.

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:41 Oh no, I was sort of— you actually were looking for it? I thought, where is it?

Andy Burnham 0:44:45 Right.

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:45 Which I quite liked. And then we rang the bell, no one opened it.

Andy Burnham 0:44:48 Did they not?

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:50 It was just straight open.

Andy Burnham 0:44:51 Did you do the photo before?

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:54 Afterwards.

Andy Burnham 0:44:54 Right.

Scott (co-host) 0:44:56 And they promoted it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:44:56 Yeah.

Scott (co-host) 0:44:57 Because I've— we had it where we used to walk past and you sort of like walk into the road and do a photo. And normally I'd be walking with someone I was working with and we'd do a photo each, but you'd never quite get to the doorstep. But I remember one year doing the photo, and the door opened, and the policeman said, get on the actual step and do it.

Andy Burnham 0:45:15 Do it properly. You know, they were sort of saying, you know, which is funny.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:18 Well, I thought everybody at 10 Downing Street were absolutely superb. And I wonder if he'll listen, but a big, big shout-out to Ben, because he took myself and Emma and Scott on a tour.

Andy Burnham 0:45:31 Right.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:32 And he was brilliant. He's sort of the front-of-house guy. Now I'm questioning if it was a Ben, I do this all the time. Yeah, I'm sure his name is Ben.

Andy Burnham 0:45:42 Anyway, text him, Ben.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:44 The, the front of her, he was really great.

Andy Burnham 0:45:47 Right.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:47 So, um, that was a wonderful experience before even doing the interview.

Scott (co-host) 0:45:52 Did a little bit of you think of Caleb going and getting told off for knocking on the door too hard when you pressed the bell?

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:58 No. Oh, I did. I'm not being rude. Don't compare me to Caleb.

Scott (co-host) 0:46:03 I'm comparing you for Caleb.

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:04 I'm just thinking it's like, I mean, I like in a film—

Andy Burnham 0:46:07 I like Caleb, but the people that have walked through that door, it's crazy, isn't it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:12 Yeah. I mean, I can go much further into things, but I think we'll save that for a little Patreon with Emma.

Scott (co-host) 0:46:19 Well, Emma was with you, obviously. So she did the tour round.

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:22 She was with me and it was pouring with rain. And I want to have a little debrief with Emma, with you though, so you can ask her some questions, which I think could be quite fun.

Scott (co-host) 0:46:30 I've got a lot of behind the scenes questions I wanna ask you.

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:33 Excellent.

Scott (co-host) 0:46:34 So I can't do those now?

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:35 No, no. Let's save those. Save those for Patreon, cuz this has been probably one of my most serious special podcasts, and I really don't want to ruin it. And for anybody who is listening who hasn't listened to Life with Nat, none of the pods are like this again. Turnover to the rest is politics.

Scott (co-host) 0:46:52 Well, you never know.

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:55 Well, I could have. Who knows?

Scott (co-host) 0:46:57 You might gain some listeners.

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:59 You never know.

Scott (co-host) 0:46:59 You might lose some listeners.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:01 I don't think so over one episode.

Scott (co-host) 0:47:03 I don't know.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:03 And it's a very important subject that people are passionate about.

Scott (co-host) 0:47:06 Did you— just one little spoiler.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:08 Yeah.

Scott (co-host) 0:47:09 I'm gonna ask you.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott (co-host) 0:47:11 When you presented the Prime Minister with a trolley token.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:16 Yeah.

Scott (co-host) 0:47:16 Did he look at you as if, I really don't know what this is for? Or did— there was a little glint in his eye where he might secretly be a listener?

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:30 He did not know what it was for.

Scott (co-host) 0:47:34 Ah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:34 And then very quickly he was like, is this when you haven't got a pound? And he thought it was genius, actually. And I said— Genius. Yep. And I said, pop that on your keyring. Right. And he said he was gonna use it when he goes to Lidl in Manchester. Okay.

Scott (co-host) 0:47:49 Well, anyone who knows a Lidl, you don't put a pound in for a trolley at Lidl.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:52 Might do.

Andy Burnham 0:47:54 Don't think you do.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:54 Might, might do.

Andy Burnham 0:47:55 Not in our one, you don't. Well, that'll be in it. That's it now.

Scott (co-host) 0:47:59 That's loads of messages coming in.

Natalie Cassidy 0:48:00 I think it depends where it is.

Andy Burnham 0:48:02 Okay.

Natalie Cassidy 0:48:03 It's like Brookfield.

Andy Burnham 0:48:04 Well, it may be Brookfield.

Natalie Cassidy 0:48:06 You don't have pound coins. Harlow, you do.

Andy Burnham 0:48:07 No, Brookfield, it's like £50 notes you've got to put in the thing to get the, get the trolley out.

Natalie Cassidy 0:48:12 But I'm saying it depends where it is.

Andy Burnham 0:48:14 Okay. So, but I just wondered, is that be the giveaway? Because if he immediately got it, you'd be like, oh, he's interested.

Natalie Cassidy 0:48:22 Yeah, I don't think he listens to the pod.

Andy Burnham 0:48:25 That's a shame, that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:48:26 However, he might do now.

Andy Burnham 0:48:26 He might do going forward, maybe.

Natalie Cassidy 0:48:28 He might do. I'm not sure if— he's a big sport lover.

Scott (co-host) 0:48:34 Did you get a chance to ask him about steam engines, if he's interested, or—

Natalie Cassidy 0:48:39 Didn't mention the steam engine thing. Okay. I mean, there were quite a lot of things I didn't mention. Such as? Just loads of things I would've liked to, 'cause the time went so quickly. But I just can't believe little old me from Islington. I wish my mum and dad were here. I have to say, I did think, oh, I'd love to tell my mum and dad what I've just done.

Scott (co-host) 0:49:00 I noticed you got your brother in straight away.

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:03 Well, because David actually is so into it all, and he genuinely did say to me, could you tell him that I think it's the best party political conference speech that I've heard for 50 years. So I thought, well, I'll get it in. Nice, nice way to come in, isn't it? With a little compliment. Yeah. Which is true. So hopefully David will like that. But yeah, what a lovely— what a week, really.

Scott (co-host) 0:49:30 I mean, what I want to ask is, where do you go from here? You've got the Prime— you've had the Prime Minister on Life Within That.

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:37 Yes.

Scott (co-host) 0:49:38 Surely you've gotta aim for a bit of royalty now.

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:41 Well, I would love the Queen on.

Scott (co-host) 0:49:43 Well, she's a bit of a fan of yours.

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:46 I would like to get the Queen on, Queen Camilla, because she does ever such a lot of work for domestic violence.

Scott (co-host) 0:49:54 And she knows you.

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:55 And she does know me. We are buddies. Knows of you. I mean, do you reckon, I mean, I know the King, I know the Queen. I, I know the Prime Minister now. Is that quite special, or do loads of people know that? There are loads of people who know them, isn't there? It's not that special, is it?

Andy Burnham 0:50:15 Sorry, what, you're asking if someone knows all 3 of them?

Natalie Cassidy 0:50:18 Yeah, yeah, sort of. Is that—

Andy Burnham 0:50:20 Know them?

Natalie Cassidy 0:50:21 Not know them, but have been acquainted. And I think if I went up to the King or Queen and say, do you remember the visit? I'm sorry, she came up to you. Yeah. She did. Yeah.

Scott (co-host) 0:50:32 And told you that she's watched you on the telly since you were a little girl.

Natalie Cassidy 0:50:34 Yeah. That's true.

Scott (co-host) 0:50:36 She definitely knows who you are. Mhmm. No questions.

Natalie Cassidy 0:50:39 Well, maybe I can get her on because I'd love to talk to her about her work she does for domestic violence.

Andy Burnham 0:50:45 Well, there you go.

Scott (co-host) 0:50:46 Mhmm. If someone's listening, you know, and also now you've kinda set the standard now.

Natalie Cassidy 0:50:52 Well, at least I can send a little clip. Yeah. And say I had the PM on. Yeah, and I just wondered.

Scott (co-host) 0:50:58 But it certainly— you certainly weren't sort of scraping the barrel with, um, with Andy Burnham, were you?

Natalie Cassidy 0:51:03 No. But anyway, for anyone listening, don't worry, uh, I'm not gonna go all posh and just have loads of people on that you might not be interested in. We're, uh, but back to normal, back to normal next week, um, and hopefully a sprinkling of special guests going forward. So it's lovely.

Scott (co-host) 0:51:19 They would be really nice, I think. To, to hear what people thought of, of you talking to him.

Natalie Cassidy 0:51:27 And just being there.

Scott (co-host) 0:51:29 I was very proud when I heard it. I was really like, I can't believe you've done this. And I thought, and you must have been very nervous, and you, the way you conducted yourself, the way you asked stuff, it was brilliant.

Natalie Cassidy 0:51:40 Thank you.

Scott (co-host) 0:51:41 It was really, really good to hear. I, I, it was really nice, really just, yeah, amazing thing to have done. I mean, it's hilarious as well because once again, it's no different to when Joanie got a direct message from Alan Carr.

Natalie Cassidy 0:51:57 Yeah.

Scott (co-host) 0:51:58 And she was all very sort of, whatever. I mean, her mum's spoken to the Prime Minister.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:04 Annalisa.

Andy Burnham 0:52:04 Not bothered at all, are they?

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:06 Not a dickie bird out of them. It's bizarre. It's good. It keeps me grounded.

Scott (co-host) 0:52:11 Well, yeah, but I'm more worried about them. I mean, the fact that they're— I mean, how do you impress your I mean, genuinely.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:19 How could I impress them?

Scott (co-host) 0:52:20 How can you impress your kids? You must have been asking yourself that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:26 It takes a lot. I'm not sure. I don't know, actually.

Scott (co-host) 0:52:29 It really does take a lot.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:31 But that's all right. And the family— no, the family have been so proud. Oh, and honestly, the messages I've had— Dominic, right, couldn't believe it. I've had messages from obviously Jack, Els, and me and the girls and Linda. We always talk, but Sharon, Tony, James and Evie, you know, all the family.

Scott (co-host) 0:52:49 I bet Tony was pleased you got to chat to him.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:51 Thrilled. Yeah.

Scott (co-host) 0:52:54 I mean, maybe you could have a little chat with him about that when he's on.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:56 Yeah, I might do.

Speaker N 0:52:59 Okay.

Scott (co-host) 0:53:02 But it's gotta be balanced.

Natalie Cassidy 0:53:04 It has gotta be balanced. It's nice to have a nice balanced podcast. It, it certainly is. Yeah.

Scott (co-host) 0:53:08 But, and, and in all seriousness, I do think that it was really— that was what was very good about that. That was quite a genuinely— like, it sounded like both of you were very on topic. Yes. And I have to say, you know, I mean, do you mean this sincerely? I think the way that, uh, Mr. Burnham kind of conducted himself was very good. There was a little dig, a little dig about how he tried to do something before he was in the business.

Natalie Cassidy 0:53:46 Yeah, that's what he was saying he was, but he did do that.

Scott (co-host) 0:53:49 Yeah, but there was a little bit like, well, you know, there was a couple of bits, but to be fair.

Natalie Cassidy 0:53:53 Yeah, but it was on topic, I think.

Scott (co-host) 0:53:56 Because the thing that really winds me up listening to you, when, when I, when I used to listen to your favourite radio station, is you get a politician on and they just use it as a platform.

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:04 Don't keep saying that because I'd like to do Magic Christmas. That's a different radio station. I know, but we shouldn't say it's my favourite. It should be my favourite Magic Christmas. Oh, sorry, I see what you're saying.

Scott (co-host) 0:54:14 Yes, when you listen to your second favourite radio station, LBC, I do feel that quite often you'll get— you'll hear an interview.

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:23 Oh no, and it's all bashing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott (co-host) 0:54:26 They just use it as an excuse.

Scott (co-host) 0:54:27 But I have to say, it clearly— he does know what he does. Of course he knows what he's talking about because he's had a very sad experience with his dad. And, and, you know, he's, he's real. He's obviously a human being. He came across that way.

Scott (co-host) 0:54:38 Mm-hmm. But also, likewise, I think the way you did it, the way you conducted yourself was, A, it was very neutral. Mm. I think, which is a good thing. And, uh, I think that you didn't— it didn't come across as it was some sort of— I don't know, you, you were, you were doing it sincerely as well.

Scott (co-host) 0:55:00 You're not doing it for some sort of means to kind of gain traction.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:02 Well, I'm not at all.

Scott (co-host) 0:55:03 And it is a subject you know well. And I was at work today telling people about it because they've now seen the clips.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:09 Yes.

Scott (co-host) 0:55:10 You know, and, um, yeah, they, they were saying themselves that, you know, the way that you just know what you're talking about as per the documentary, obviously that's real. Obviously you now is real. It's really good.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:25 Well, It's something I'm passionate about, isn't it? And long may it continue. If I can keep within this sort of care sector field and make any difference at all, make anybody heard, anyone seen, I'm gonna continue to do it 'cause I love it.

Scott (co-host) 0:55:38 And what are the chances of you doing like anything more documentary-wise? Have you thought about that?

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:43 Yeah, we have. No, no, no. It's all sort of talks and speaking about things, but no one's got any money in telly, have they, at the moment? No.

Scott (co-host) 0:55:52 So We might have to do it ourselves, might have to get the dust off the old camcorder in the loft.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:56 We could do it on our own.

Andy Burnham 0:55:57 We could whack it on YouTube.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:58 That's true.

Scott (co-host) 0:56:00 Just do it ourselves. It's the way forward, I think, these days.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:02 A lot of people are doing it, aren't they?

Andy Burnham 0:56:04 You wouldn't pay me though, would you? No. To do it like this. That's the problem.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:06 No, all out of love.

Andy Burnham 0:56:08 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:09 It all sort of comes back in the end, doesn't it? It's all sort of ours. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott (co-host) 0:56:14 Possibly.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:15 Right, well, there we go. I think we should finish here.

Scott (co-host) 0:56:19 I feel like, I feel like we should have now a glass of champagne to celebrate.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:22 Oh, that would have been nice. That'd be really nice.

Scott (co-host) 0:56:25 Well, congratulations.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:27 Thank you.

Scott (co-host) 0:56:27 Hopefully that's the first of many, uh, exciting guests, slightly different guests on the podcast.

Andy Burnham 0:56:34 Not to say that, you know, the standard lineup will always be there.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:37 Everyone loves the standard lineup, so that will never ever go, I promise.

Scott (co-host) 0:56:41 No, I know, but, but at the same time, I think you should be very proud of yourself because something you created that you do everything for and it's all part of you, that has genuinely attracted Downing Street to say the Prime Minister wants to come on it. Just think about that. That's unbelievable.

Andy Burnham 0:57:00 Yeah, it is.

Natalie Cassidy 0:57:03 Yeah, it is.

Andy Burnham 0:57:03 And I am very, very proud of you.

Natalie Cassidy 0:57:07 Thank you.