EP248: Living a Purposeful Life with Kate Drummond

Natalie Cassidy 0:02:30 I was so pleased that you said that you'd pop on and have a chat with me.

Kate Drummond 0:02:34 Yeah, no, it's great. Thank you for having me.

Natalie Cassidy 0:02:37 Well, you caught my eye. Sometimes we can be really negative about social media.

Kate Drummond 0:02:43 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:02:44 Someone like you pops up and you really caught my eye. I loved your name. I love Reinvent with Kate.

Kate Drummond 0:02:50 No.

Natalie Cassidy 0:02:51 I started reading some of your stuff and I thought, oh, I'd really like to talk to you. So here you are.

Kate Drummond 0:02:57 Here I am.

Natalie Cassidy 0:02:57 This is Kate, everybody. And, um, I'd love you to just tell your story really of how you've got where you've got now, 'cause it, it looks like you've had a bit of a change, change throughout the years.

Kate Drummond 0:03:09 God, where do we begin? So first off, I'm Kate Drummond. I'm 52.

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:14 You look absolutely incredible.

Kate Drummond 0:03:17 Thanks, Nat. Talk to you every week.

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:20 No, you really do look amazing. Amazing.

Kate Drummond 0:03:23 Yeah. So I'm still figuring it out like most of us, to be honest. But my story really regarding to where I've gotten now, I started in international banking when I was 16. Didn't go to university, college. I don't think they would've had me, to be honest. I went straight into international banking. It wasn't what I wanted to do. Right. I wanted to be a creative. I wanted to go into graphic design. Um, but at the time it was YTS. Don't know if you remember, it was a youth training scheme.

Natalie Cassidy 0:03:55 Right. Okay.

Kate Drummond 0:03:56 Um, before your time. And I was so excited. I was offered this job in Soho and I was like, yes! It was like creating posters for movies. And I was like, oh my God, this is just like the dream job. And last minute they decided to put me on YTS, which ended up something like £60 a week. And I was like, I'm not going to be able to do it. So I ended up in banking after 52 letters. It was either that or go back to sixth form.

Natalie Cassidy 0:04:22 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:04:24 That was not— you didn't want to do that? No, did not want to do that. Um, so yes, spent most, most of my career in corporate, uh, but then early on when I was 23, I was diagnosed with ME, chronic fatigue syndrome.

Kate Drummond 0:04:41 Uh, at the time, early '90s, everyone was throwing about that it was yuppie flu. You know, it was sort of just made up. So that was pretty tough. Uh, I couldn't move for about a year. I was just— I'd have to crawl everywhere, and if I'd crawled for 5 minutes, I was on the floor asleep.

Kate Drummond 0:05:00 So that started— that reignited my sort of spiritual side because I've been brought up like that, you know, believe in the angels, have crystals in your bra, and, you know, and a bit of Palo Santo and everything. And—

Natalie Cassidy 0:05:13 Oh, you've been brought up like that, had you?

Kate Drummond 0:05:15 Yeah, my— yeah, my mum. Oh, Oh my God. Yeah. So I was always surrounded by that. You always have to have your crystals with you. And you know, you always, mum, mum still, she lives with us now and she always still says, take 'em with you. You know, whatever I'm doing, it's take 'em with you. I love that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:05:33 I love that. I know. My mum was the absolute polar opposite. You know, she really, I never ever heard, I think I never heard anyone in my family mention, mention crystals or the moon or absolutely not. They would've said, what a load of, what a load of old rubbish that is, you know? That's so, so interesting.

Kate Drummond 0:05:51 It's funny, isn't it? So yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:05:53 So you got, you got back into that then when you became ill?

Kate Drummond 0:05:55 Yeah, because I've become so ill and I read 3 books and that was You Can Heal Your Life by Louise Hay, which I threw across the room many times because it just hit nerves and it's so relevant today as it was like near on 30 years ago.

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:12 Right. Okay.

Kate Drummond 0:06:13 It's, it's really, really powerful, especially when you're experiencing change. The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari by Robin Sharma, and The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. And those 3 books just sort of got me there and went, right, you've, you've got to take control here. You can't let this keep you down. So I studied as a personal trainer. I did lifestyle management, um, nutrition, and I did that for a while. And then ended up back in the corporate world, right? And forgot everything that I'd learned about how to look after myself. Oh, lucky day. So in mid-late 20s, ended back up in banking and then went into—

Natalie Cassidy 0:06:57 Can I ask you, Kate, sorry, just whilst we're going through the story, you said that you, um, you sort of went into the corporate world, the banking world at 16. So between, in those years, um, before you got poorly, did you enjoy it? Did you enjoy that job? You did?

Kate Drummond 0:07:14 Loved it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:07:14 You loved it?

Kate Drummond 0:07:15 It was, it was the early '90s. It was in the city.

Natalie Cassidy 0:07:19 Yeah, I can imagine.

Kate Drummond 0:07:20 Burnt the candle at both ends. You know, you played as hard as you worked, and you was, you was rewarded for it then. You know, there was, if you did overtime, you got paid for it. He was doubling your salary every month. So it was, it was real. I just loved every second about it. I love the people. I love the fast pace of it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:07:40 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:07:40 It was just, yeah, it was exciting.

Natalie Cassidy 0:07:43 And when your pace slowed down, because not out of, um, choice, but you know, out of necessity because you were ill, um, did, did people look after you? Did you hear from people? Were people around you?

Kate Drummond 0:07:56 Yeah. Yeah, I did. Do you know what? In my early 20s, I still had that really good group of friends. At the time when I became really ill, I lived with a, a boyfriend at the time. We lived in Stanmore. And we had this really small one-bedroom flat. And he was brilliant. He was brilliant. Bless him. Can you imagine being in your 20s having this relationship and then you've got your girlfriend who's just falling apart at the seams?

Natalie Cassidy 0:08:19 Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:08:20 So yeah, he was absolutely brilliant. My friends were amazing. Family was incredible.

Natalie Cassidy 0:08:26 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:08:26 So I had an amazing support network. So I was really, really lucky. And I think that sort of helped me get back on track. That and like I say, these 3 particular books. just sort of switch something for that moment in time.

Natalie Cassidy 0:08:41 It's funny how those, it's so special, isn't it? That reading, you can read certain things and it can actually rewire your brain, you know? So you can have those moments of awakening that you think, that's gonna change you forever.

Kate Drummond 0:08:54 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:08:54 I find that very difficult with the children at the moment. They don't really read as, you know, Joni loves a book. She loves me reading to her and, But they're not— I want them to, you know, really be passionate about books. But they will. You find something. It does happen. There's no— you can't force it on a person.

Kate Drummond 0:09:13 My youngest, she, she was a great reader as a, as a tot. Doesn't touch a book now. She's 21. I couldn't even tell you the last time she remembers reading.

Natalie Cassidy 0:09:23 No.

Kate Drummond 0:09:23 But she's got certain books that she'd go back to, and I think they all find it in their own time, don't they? Yes. Yes. You know, we can't force it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:09:32 And also, we— I don't wanna sit and read a book I don't like. No. Do you know what I mean? I'll pick a book up, and if I'm not into it, I don't finish it. So I think— yeah, sorry. I think that's—

Kate Drummond 0:09:43 no, that's all right. But that's interesting what you said there, because I'm a great believer in that as well, that sometimes we're meant to only read maybe a paragraph, a page, or a chapter of a book in this moment in time, and then we might pick it up 10 years later. I go back to it. Ah, that's why I need to read this now.

Natalie Cassidy 0:10:01 Yeah, so true. So true. So, so that happened. You went back, you forgot about everything you'd learned. Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:10:10 Went back to drinking, went back to smoking.

Natalie Cassidy 0:10:14 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:10:15 Went back to working hard, playing hard.

Natalie Cassidy 0:10:18 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:10:19 Yeah. And so my body was like, you can't keep on doing this. But I still felt at that time that I had it under control. So I, let's say I went into personal training, went back into the corporate world, and then I had my daughter.

Kate Drummond 0:10:35 I was in a really toxic relationship, and everyone around me, like all my friends, all my support network, were like, Kate, what are you doing? You're not this person. Like, I'm— I've always been quite a strong person. I'd walk away. at silly things.

Kate Drummond 0:10:54 And for whatever the reason was, I stayed. And my reason, I believe, is because I have my daughter. And then I left when she was 4 months old.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:01 4 months?

Kate Drummond 0:11:02 Yeah. Again, it's a life lesson, isn't it? It did— that on its own was just shifted everything.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:10 Yeah. I mean, I've been there, done that one.

Kate Drummond 0:11:12 Yeah, it's tough.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:14 It's really, really tough, tough, tough to leave. Tough to leave.

Kate Drummond 0:11:19 Tough to leave. And, you know, you stay for so long and just, you know, everyone else is telling you, but you've got to figure it out for yourself. And that's sort of been the thread thereafter. It's, you know, we can, we can share our wisdom with other people, but if you're not ready, it's not going to happen.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:38 So true. And that's with everything, isn't it?

Kate Drummond 0:11:40 Yeah, everything.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:41 Everything.

Kate Drummond 0:11:42 Absolutely. Giving up smoking, giving up drinking, all of those things, you know, relationships. Like you was just saying about the kids picking up a book, if they're not gonna do it, they're not gonna do it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:11:53 No, it's true. You can't, you can't tell people what to do. You can't preach. You just gotta let 'em learn their lessons, find their way.

Kate Drummond 0:12:00 Yeah. Yeah. So after that, I think Neil was about 4.

Natalie Cassidy 0:12:06 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:12:06 And my brother had been working in, in Bermondsey for, well, since he was 17. And one of the guys he worked with, they were really, really close friends, but I'd never actually met him. And he'd been going through a divorce and my brother moved to Australia and I had to take all his stuff back and we sort of connected. So a year or so later, we merged families, which again, another huge life lesson. That's—

Natalie Cassidy 0:12:36 Yeah, yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:12:37 Not always as easy as that sounds. And I started studying psychology, but the kids were still young and that at the time. And that was— so I got sort of a quarter of the way through that. And then I went into perimenopause at 38.

Natalie Cassidy 0:12:54 Wow.

Kate Drummond 0:12:55 And that changed everything. Absolutely everything.

Natalie Cassidy 0:12:59 Good grief. And how did you— because back then, so we're going back, what, 12, about 12 years?

Kate Drummond 0:13:07 14, 14 years.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:09 14 years. I don't feel, I don't feel like 14 years ago perimenopause was spoken about a lot at all. So I didn't even know it existed. So you didn't know what you were in. Does that make sense? Yeah. Back then?

Kate Drummond 0:13:22 Yeah. So at first it was literally, it's my bathroom floor moment. I went to bed absolutely normal. You know, life was normal. The kids were up, down and, you know, being kids.

Natalie Cassidy 0:13:33 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:13:34 Went to bed quite happy, woke up the next morning, went to the toilet, washed my hands, looked in the mirror. And you know, when people say, oh, I looked in the mirror and I didn't recognise myself, it's sort of the thing we say, right? It was like I was looking at you and I'd never met you before. Wow. I didn't look the same. I didn't feel the same. I couldn't— there was just no connection. And at first, I started panicking because at first I thought I was having a stroke. I thought something was sort of misfiring in my brain. And, and I could feel myself— and I'm not an anxious person per se.

Natalie Cassidy 0:14:15 No.

Kate Drummond 0:14:15 I could feel myself really panicking. Like my heart was beating. And I was like, what is happening? I was touching the mirror. And I'm like, this isn't me. Not one part of me looked like me. It didn't feel like me. It just looked like someone else was there.

Natalie Cassidy 0:14:31 Good grief.

Kate Drummond 0:14:32 And it was awful. And I literally sat on the floor and I cried for about an hour. Not a nice, elegant cry. I was like snobbing. Yeah. And, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. And my husband coming to me went, what's happened? I went, I don't know. I don't know. And I think that's the That's one of the hardest things with perimenopause that I've heard from many women over the years, is that how can you explain something to someone else that you have no idea on how to understand yourself?

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:06 Yeah, I think, I think you're right. I think it's so complicated and complex that, and everybody's so different in how that happens. that you just have to try and navigate that for yourself, I think.

Kate Drummond 0:15:23 Absolutely. I mean, I have moments.

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:24 I'm 43 now, and, you know, I do. I talk about it very— at the moment, we're all hot. Don't get me wrong. But I do. I feel sometimes very— my arms sweat, my legs sweat, and I think, well, that's a bit strange. Or— but it— even now, I can talk about it, but I don't really know if I'm in it or not because I don't really know what it is.

Kate Drummond 0:15:41 Exactly. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know.

Natalie Cassidy 0:15:44 I don't— I, I could be because I, I could be, but I'm not sure if I am. And that's why we have to keep continue to talk to each other. Keep talking.

Kate Drummond 0:15:53 Yeah, absolutely. Because I think it's the, the symptoms are the easiest thing to explain to other people, aren't they? You know, like your hot flushes, your brain fog, you walk into places and you forget. And although that gets better, you still have moments. I did a talk the other night and I had my notes on the side and I had to literally pick 'em up halfway through because my brain just went dead.

Natalie Cassidy 0:16:15 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:16:15 And that's, you know, that's where you're at first, your confidence is really knocked because you're just like, oh my God, I was someone who could remember numbers and, and, you know, names and faces and all this. And suddenly you're like— but nobody explains that internal feeling. Like, the symptoms, 50, however many of them there are, are easy. But that feeling that I had that day and for a long time afterwards complete feeling of loss.

Natalie Cassidy 0:16:44 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:16:45 Like, you, you don't know who you are. Right? It's— you're sort of becoming this completely different person.

Natalie Cassidy 0:16:56 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:16:56 And you're trying to tell your friends and family what's going on, but you're still navigating it. You're in it at that moment. And it's this— that's the thing I think we need to talk about more.

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:09 Is that where your Instagrams came from?

Kate Drummond 0:17:11 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:12 Is that when you started doing what you're doing now?

Kate Drummond 0:17:15 Yeah, because I, I couldn't find anything around the perimenopause. No, about that support. And then when I did, little while later, it was all very negative. Yeah, it was all about, you know, my husband doesn't understand me, leave him. It was, it was all responsive. It was all blaming.

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:38 Yeah, blame culture.

Kate Drummond 0:17:41 And I'd never been brought up like that. I'd always been brought up, look, life's gonna throw you curveballs all the time, right?

Natalie Cassidy 0:17:48 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:17:49 We've got choice. We can either sit and wallow and suffer, or we can find a way out of it. And that's what I wanted to do. So it was built on the— I wanted to give hope. I wanted— Oprah said it and I loved it. Every person on the planet wants to be seen, to be loved, to be heard.

Natalie Cassidy 0:18:10 That's true.

Kate Drummond 0:18:10 And I think that was where it all started, is just sharing what I was going through, sharing, you know, the ups and downs. But also, let's look at the future. Let's look at the way out.

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:24 You've got a book coming out.

Kate Drummond 0:20:25 I have. The 8 Minute Method.

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:27 That's amazing.

Kate Drummond 0:20:28 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:29 When did that happen? Did someone come to you, or are you doing it on your own? The book? I'm doing it on my own.

Kate Drummond 0:20:35 You are? Yeah. Yeah. I'm doing it on my own. It, it came through this. It came through the bathroom floor moment and through the beginning of menopause.

Natalie Cassidy 0:20:45 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:20:46 Or in the midst of perimenopause when you feel that you have to do something to expand. Yeah. And everyone's saying, right, you have to go to the gym, you have to do this, you have to do this. And I was like, this is overwhelming.

Natalie Cassidy 0:21:00 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:21:00 And for me at the time, doing an hour of anything with family and that, I was just like, this is not happening. But to do 5 minutes of it wasn't worth it. And I started with doing 8 minutes of things. No, sitting down and just journaling. I've always been a journaler. Sitting down, just give myself 8 minutes. Walk around the garden for 8 minutes. No phone, no nothing, no noise. Just 8 minutes. Exercise for 8 minutes.

Natalie Cassidy 0:21:34 Yeah, because you're right, you're right. 5 minutes is— 5 minutes is very quick, isn't it? Yeah, but sometimes you haven't got 10 minutes. Yeah, I really like it. So true.

Kate Drummond 0:21:45 I really like that. It's so true. It's not until you say it that you think, Danielle, that is really, really true. You know, we struggle for 10, but 8 is that sweet spot. And so I started doing the research on it, and it is that Goldilocks zone, you know, that sweet spot of change where 5 is not enough. 10 is too much. 8 is just right.

Natalie Cassidy 0:22:12 Just right. Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:22:13 Because if you're then enjoying it, you might carry on for 15. You might carry on for 20. But if you're not, you're not beating yourself up.

Natalie Cassidy 0:22:23 No, you've done it. You've done it.

Kate Drummond 0:22:26 You've done it. Yeah. Yeah. And to make a bed, a double bed or a king bed, whatever you've got, perfectly, Does it take 8 minutes? It's 8 minutes. And that was one of the reasons, because I was like, I felt that making a bed was quite meditative. Well, not a meditation, but meditative in the way that I could just focus on it. I was just not overthinking.

Natalie Cassidy 0:22:53 When you're saying make the bed, are you meaning you've stripped the bed and you're putting the duvets back on, the sheet back on, everything?

Kate Drummond 0:23:00 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:00 Making the bed like that. Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:23:02 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:03 8 minutes. I think I, I agree with you about bed making.

Kate Drummond 0:23:08 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:08 Straighten it all out. There's something quite methodical about it, something quite calming about it.

Kate Drummond 0:23:13 And then when you see it at the end of the day, the bed's made. It's, it's a win, isn't it? It's a win in the morning. And if you achieve nothing else, it was, what was his name? Um, I think he was a general. He did a Texas commencement speech, University of Texas commencement speech. I think it was in 2014, and it was on about make your bed.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:35 They say, don't they, that you've— if you don't make your bed in the morning, well, it's just not— it's not a good thing, is it?

Kate Drummond 0:23:43 No.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:44 You've got, I think, a 75% more chance of becoming a millionaire if you make your bed every morning. Yeah. Because it's success. It's a mindset, isn't it? It's—

Kate Drummond 0:23:54 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:54 something done.

Kate Drummond 0:23:55 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:23:55 As soon as you get it, it's done. And when you walk back into that room, it's no chaos. It's— yeah, it's nicely done.

Kate Drummond 0:24:01 Yeah. And that's— it's a really great— it's a really great speech to listen to. I think you can get it on, uh, YouTube. It's 19 minutes long, and you come away and you're like, make my bed every day like this. It's like, yes, success! So that was where that came from. And then through the research obviously because I like magical things, you know, and there wasn't the— 8 is the magic number, but there was so much about in the neuroscience and the psychology of the number 8 through time, religion, cultures, you know, the infinity sign. Oh, I was gonna say infinity.

Natalie Cassidy 0:24:41 I was just about to say that it's the never-ending number, isn't it?

Kate Drummond 0:24:43 Yeah. So as I sort of dived into the research of this, I was like, this is, this is powerful. Group circles for women. When you have 8 women in a circle to either do coaching or healing, or just sitting around to offload and have a chat, it is powerful. Again, it's that sweet spot. There's just enough energy. It's not overwhelmed. There is that perfect amount, you know, and it's— yeah. So the Power of 8 is amazing.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:19 Sounds very— it's very, very special. Very, very nice. Yeah. I'm excited. Your book's out October.

Kate Drummond 0:25:26 October.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:27 Can people preorder the book?

Kate Drummond 0:25:29 Not as yet.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:31 No. Okay, fine.

Kate Drummond 0:25:32 They can start— they can join the launch list.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:35 Yes. Okay.

Kate Drummond 0:25:36 And which is on the website. And they get the first chapter.

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:42 Oh, that's lovely. Well, we'll put all of the— pop all the links underneath this pod. Really?

Natalie Cassidy 0:25:47 Thank you. Yeah, no, of course, of course we will. Of course we will. Yeah, I just, I just find anyone, anyone that you meet who's been through stuff and a lot of stuff like yourself, out of that has spawned good. Like, you see, I feel like I've done the same in a way, and I don't, really pat myself on the back enough, I don't think.

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:08 I just go, oh no, you know, I'm just doing this and just doing this now. No, but I'm just, I'm just doing it. I sort of go, oh no, yeah, well, I'm doing that. But if, if people, if someone actually sits down and they say, no, Natalie, you've been on telly all your life. There's been a lot of ups and downs.

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:25 You've had lots of struggles with your weight. You was in a really toxic relationship that you got out of. Yeah. You know, actually, like you say, you could sink quite easily and recoil and not do a lot and remain quiet and just go, well, this is not all for me anymore. And—

Kate Drummond 0:26:47 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:26:48 I, I could have gone very, very quiet, but actually I didn't. I swam, been brave, made changes. Left work like yourself. Very, very financially stable job. And but it's boring. A bit boring. You need to change. It's good.

Kate Drummond 0:27:08 Yeah. And I think we are where, especially the last few weeks, the amount of women I've spoken to, young and old, and I put it on my Instagram yesterday.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:16 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:27:16 That have been talking about pivoting.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:19 Right there.

Kate Drummond 0:27:20 Something doesn't feel right in their career, you know, and major, not earth-shattering, but just something's not—

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:27 Yes, but there's just something there.

Kate Drummond 0:27:29 Yeah, not bringing that joy anymore. And suddenly, like, everywhere— it's got to be something going on with the Moon and that, because everyone I'm talking to is like, you know what, I'm ready for a change. I don't know what it is, to sort of change it up a bit. And that's good. And, you know, if you listen to that, like yourself, you then paying it forward by being brave enough to make that change. And following what feels right.

Natalie Cassidy 0:27:54 If I would've seen myself now, when I first left work, I thought to myself, well, I'm gonna have to do anything that comes in. I'm gonna have to do, 'cause I dunno what I'm doing, you know? And financially I need to do everything. And I can't believe now that I'm in a place where I look at things and I think, right, how much time's that going to take? Do I want to do that? Is it going to bring me joy? Yeah. And I say no to things. I say no, thank you very much, but no, don't wanna do that. And that is the most powerful thing for me, saying no.

Kate Drummond 0:28:31 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:28:32 Being able to say, no, I don't want to do that. And that's okay. And I know, and I feel confident that something else will come along.

Kate Drummond 0:28:40 And that's the, that's the thing, isn't it? That's that belief.

Natalie Cassidy 0:28:45 Yeah, it's believing in yourself.

Kate Drummond 0:28:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And setting those boundaries, you know. And we say this a lot, we, we get told by society, oh, you have to say no more. But we do. But we also have to remember to say yes to the things that bring us joy.

Natalie Cassidy 0:28:59 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:29:00 You know, and it's finding that balance, isn't it? And to have those boundaries where you say, no, that's not right for me, that doesn't feel good.

Natalie Cassidy 0:29:08 Well, I think also as we get older, I also think that's Again, it, it, it's a thread that goes through all of your life.

Kate Drummond 0:29:16 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:29:16 So when someone says to me, oh, are we going here tonight? Or this is what we wanna do, are you coming? I would never have said no in my 20s. I would've gone, yeah, no, I would've like, yeah, and I'm going to everything. Or you don't wanna miss out and it's FOMO and it's this.

Kate Drummond 0:29:31 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:29:31 Doesn't matter if you're tired. But I, I now, you know, very often I just say, no, I'm not, I don't want to do that. Thank you very much, but I don't wanna do that. And there's like no reason, there's not an excuse. I don't have to lie and pretend I'm ill.

Kate Drummond 0:29:45 I know.

Natalie Cassidy 0:29:46 Do you know what I mean?

Kate Drummond 0:29:47 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:29:47 Just say, no, I don't want to do that. And that's fine.

Kate Drummond 0:29:51 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:29:51 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:29:51 And do you know what? I think that's one of the greatest gifts of perimenopause that are only, that get even better, Nat. Because I think through that, the, the filter comes off.

Natalie Cassidy 0:30:01 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:30:02 Because where our hormones post-menopause, our hormones balance out.

Natalie Cassidy 0:30:07 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:30:07 As women, we've never had that balance. We've never had that because from birth our hormones are doing that. There's none of these layers there anymore.

Natalie Cassidy 0:30:15 And it's just life-changing, isn't it? You just feel very, very calm. Although I don't— God knows what my filter would do, um, because I'm very— I feel very filtered already. Um, unfiltered. Just feel very— yeah, you know.

Kate Drummond 0:30:30 And isn't that great? And but you speak to so many women and they're still— you're still worrying about the perceptions or the thoughts and wants and needs of everyone else.

Natalie Cassidy 0:30:41 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:30:41 That you sort of forget yourself. And it's, that's tough.

Natalie Cassidy 0:30:46 It is. And I still struggle with wanting to do things that I know will make me happy, like today sitting and watching tennis because it's too hot for me outside.

Kate Drummond 0:30:59 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:31:00 And I've got loads of things I could be doing, loads and loads of housework. Loads of, just loads of things.

Kate Drummond 0:31:07 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:31:08 But I don't care today. I want to sit down. I want to watch the tennis. I don't want to get hot. And I know that I've got a very busy weekend and next week and what have you. So I'm going to do that without feeling guilty. And I think that's a big struggle because the guilt, I'm telling you, by 1 o'clock that will creep in and I'll think, oh, should not be sitting down here. And that's, that's hard. That is, I think, very, very hard to not do and not feel selfish. So what would you say to people that feel guilty that they're being selfish doing something like that, doing whatever they want to do?

Kate Drummond 0:31:48 Yeah, and it is a tough one, but I think it's like anything we do, it's a work in progress, right? It's, it's a practice. So for example, If today you felt really, really guilty and it was overwhelming you, and you felt, I need to go and do something else.

Natalie Cassidy 0:32:07 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:32:08 That's okay too, for that moment, because you're aware of it. You're not doing it on autopilot. Okay?

Natalie Cassidy 0:32:15 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:32:16 And then, yeah. So because what you don't want to be doing is sitting there and forcing yourself into a position where you're then creating your Cortisol to rise. You're getting stressed.

Natalie Cassidy 0:32:27 That's right. You're overthinking.

Kate Drummond 0:32:29 So then you're not enjoying the tennis anyway. Then you're getting hot and bothered without even being outside. So just to give yourself permission to go, do you know what, I'm overthinking all this, and that's fine too. I'm just gonna go and fold that laundry up.

Natalie Cassidy 0:32:43 Yeah, I'll put that washing away.

Kate Drummond 0:32:45 Yeah, then I'm gonna come and sit back. Right, so you've sort of gone Yeah, I've told myself I'm not going to do it, but I'm just going to do that little thing because that's going to make me feel better.

Natalie Cassidy 0:32:55 Yes, yes.

Kate Drummond 0:32:56 And then once we start giving ourselves permission to do these things, then the guilt lessens. Because next time you sit down, you, you're not forcing yourself into that situation. You might think, I need to fold that washing, and you go, well, actually, that can wait till after the tennis.

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:17 Yeah, yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:33:18 It's not going anywhere. It's not going to grow legs and go and put itself away.

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:21 Unfortunately not.

Kate Drummond 0:33:23 No. I've tried sprinkling a bit of fairy dust over it every now and again. It doesn't work. It does not work at all. So it's not going anywhere.

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:34 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:33:36 And I think the key is to tune in. And if you're feeling that stress, don't force it. Just go and do a little thing and then come back.

Natalie Cassidy 0:33:44 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:33:45 And then it's like an elastic band. You just get stronger each time, you know? And it's, it's building that momentum, building that habit. And again, like you said, with boundaries, it's speaking to others, you know? You know, you might say to your, your husband, your partner, why do I— why do you think I feel guilty if I sit down and do nothing? Yeah. Yeah. Who's, who's going to tell you off for doing it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:13 Yeah, no one. You're absolutely right. You know, no one cares, do they? No one gives a shit what I'm doing all day.

Kate Drummond 0:34:18 No one's business.

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:20 No, but it's no one's business, is it, what I'm doing today?

Kate Drummond 0:34:23 No. So I think it's the stories we tell ourselves. And it's so— it's that first and foremost, it's being that kindness to yourself. You know, it's okay if you want to get up and put it away, but then come back and carry on doing what you're doing.

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:37 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:34:38 Yeah. And be gentle.

Natalie Cassidy 0:34:39 We could all be a bit more gentle with ourselves, couldn't we? Yeah. I think we do beat ourselves up a lot. And I think that's really interesting, you saying that. What you just said was, you know, believing your own thoughts, believing, telling yourself something. Well, so-and-so will think I'm terrible today, but you've, you've You've made up that fact.

Kate Drummond 0:35:06 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:07 And then you're believing it, you know what I mean? Whereas actually no one said a word. That's very, very powerful, that.

Kate Drummond 0:35:12 Yeah. And if you truly believe that someone else is going to think that, that's where you question them.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:18 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:35:19 Because then that dissipates. Um, you know, if I went to my husband, you know, I've had a really, really, really busy week, I'm gonna sit down, watch tennis. He'd go, good for you.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:29 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:35:30 And in my head I'll be suddenly thinking, Oh, I was expecting him to say, God, that's a bit lazy. Couldn't you be doing it?

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:35:39 You know, the opposite was true.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:40 Misconceptions of people, isn't it?

Kate Drummond 0:35:42 Yeah, yeah. And we, we all do that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:35:45 Yeah, we all do. We all have opinions of people or how they're going to react or— yeah, which aren't right.

Kate Drummond 0:35:50 That's a very important thing as well, because when we work on ourselves with that, when we stop having opinions of others or expectations. I say this to my mum all the time. Like, my mum expects all the grandkids to phone her 3 times a day, check in, come around and see her 4 times a week. And I'm like, Mum, they're busy. They've got lives.

Natalie Cassidy 0:36:16 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:36:18 You know, you've got this expectation of what you want them to do. But yes, you're 83. You're not outta work, you're not running around everywhere. You've got more time on your hands, so you are able to think of this. If we don't have the expectations of others, life becomes simpler.

Natalie Cassidy 0:36:35 It's so true. No, I was thinking, do you know, I remember when my dad lived with me here, God bless him, and he was the same, 82, 83.

Natalie Cassidy 0:36:46 He lived, you know, in my house. Yes, it's the other side of the house, but in my house. And there would be sometimes maybe a day, a day and a half where I didn't see him because I'm so busy. I was in and out with the children, da da da. And he'd really have a go at me.

Natalie Cassidy 0:37:03 He'd say, oh, here she comes. Where have you been then? Oh, I've not seen you for 2 days. And it's that thing, you go, Dad, I'm really busy. Really sorry.

Natalie Cassidy 0:37:13 Look, you're living here, you're fine, aren't you? You know, but I'm super busy.

Kate Drummond 0:37:16 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:37:17 It is, I think, elderly people, they don't have a lot to think about, do they? So they really obsess over certain little things and it means a lot to 'em, I think. And that's hard. That's why I think I really noticed with my dad, he didn't really have a lot of hobbies. He didn't have a lot of passions. You know, once he—

Kate Drummond 0:37:36 Yeah, same with my mum.

Natalie Cassidy 0:37:37 I think his passion was his wife, my mum. Yeah. But he, you know, he liked a bit of sport on the telly or what have you, but I think it's really important. I always think about that. I think it's always important to have things, be it a puzzle or gemstones or, you know, all those things that we talk about. Whatever it is, yeah. Painting by numbers or crafting or whatever those things are. I think it's so important to keep those little things up.

Kate Drummond 0:38:02 Yeah, I agree.

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:03 Because it could be quite, again, very long days, long lonely days as you get older.

Kate Drummond 0:38:07 Mm-hmm.

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:08 If you haven't got those things around you.

Kate Drummond 0:38:10 Yeah, I agree. I agree. Mum's exactly the same. She lives with us, and days that I'm really, really busy, I'll go into the kitchen and she'll go, have I upset you? Like, no, why? Well, you've not really spoken to me today. I'm like, Mum, I've just been really busy today. Yeah, yeah, again, the same. You're here, you're saying, yeah, you know, I'm not going anywhere.

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:34 But, um, that's— yeah, as well, that's another thing we've got in common. When did you move Mum in then? When did you decide that was the right thing to do?

Kate Drummond 0:38:41 So Mum and Dad lived up in Wellingham in Kent, and we'd see them regularly. Mum, this was October '23.

Natalie Cassidy 0:38:54 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:38:55 Mum had been a bit poorly, and Dad, 7 years older than Mum, he was running around like a blue-ass fly after her, looking after her. And we said, come down to us for a week. just, you know, give Dad a break and I could look after Mum. So they both come down, we did all their appointments and everything. The day they was going back, my dad had a seizure.

Natalie Cassidy 0:39:17 Right.

Kate Drummond 0:39:19 He was fine, right? And he had this seizure. We called the ambulance, they got him into hospital, and they discovered he had lung cancer, pneumonia, emphysema, and multiple brain mets.

Natalie Cassidy 0:39:34 Wow.

Kate Drummond 0:39:35 Right. But what was interesting, my dad had never felt pain his whole life. Right? He was very old school as well. And he didn't really feel pain. But he was fine, like to look at, he was walking about, and the doctors kept looking at his notes going, this is crazy. And, and they sent him home a week later. And they said he had about 6 weeks to live. Which he did. And Mum stayed. We said we can't— she can't go home.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:05 No.

Kate Drummond 0:40:06 So she stayed. And, uh, yeah, so she's here. So she's here. But you're right though, it is like my dad was her greatest passion.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:18 Yes, yes.

Kate Drummond 0:40:19 And it's tough.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:20 Well, they've been together for a long time.

Kate Drummond 0:40:23 Yes, 60— Mum was 19 when she met, so Dad was 26.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:30 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:40:31 Mad. And yeah, they died past away.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:35 Hmm.

Kate Drummond 0:40:36 How long had they been married? 59 years.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:39 Wow.

Kate Drummond 0:40:39 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:41 Good grief.

Kate Drummond 0:40:43 Yeah. So it's tough.

Natalie Cassidy 0:40:44 It's tough. It's a lot, isn't it? Loss like that. It is tough. When you're a pair, proper pair. Oh. Half hearts, isn't it?

Kate Drummond 0:40:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it's, it's again, that's another life lesson is curveballs. You know, we empty nested for a whole 10 days and then that happened. So it's just learning to roll with the punches all the time. You know, you know, so many of my clients have said, you know, I've got this perfect life that I've got planned out and this is how I want it to run. I'm like, it's never going to happen like that.

Natalie Cassidy 0:41:17 You can't control it, can you? You can't control everything that happens in your life. You just can't do that.

Kate Drummond 0:41:23 And know where I relay it back? You know where when you go through perimenopause and that, we talk a lot about strength training, right? You're preparing yourself, doing functional work for those everyday things. But if you fall on the floor, you're able to get back up, so on and so forth. And I think that works for life, right? There's no perfection. There's no There's always times when everything's running smoothly and you feel like you've got all your shit together, then suddenly bang. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're like, unbelievable. You know, how did this happen?

Natalie Cassidy 0:42:01 Yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:42:01 But if you're building that resilience all the time and you're working on yourself and you're doing good things like you're doing, you know, you're sending out that positive to the world, you're doing things, you're helping people and all that. It's just, just building you all the time. So when those knocks do come, when those curveballs do come, You feel more prepared?

Natalie Cassidy 0:42:22 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:42:23 Yeah, you're able to cope better?

Natalie Cassidy 0:42:26 Yeah, I think so. I mean, I do pretty well, but when Joni broke her arm the other week, that was it for me. It was terrible, honestly. I just thought, I can't, I can't do this anymore. I can't believe it. Is that exactly what you said? How on earth are we here again?

Kate Drummond 0:42:40 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:42:41 But yeah, you're right. She's good. She's really, really good. In fact, whilst we've been on the phone, the school's phoned me Twice. She's downstairs, so I know it's not— she hasn't broken a bone. We get thrown these little situations, don't we? Little tests, as I like to call them.

Kate Drummond 0:42:56 Absolutely.

Natalie Cassidy 0:42:57 And you have to learn to deal with them and get on with them.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:11 Tell us about the job you do now.

Kate Drummond 0:45:16 So it's had loads of reiterations over the last 10 years. Um, yeah, but ultimately I coach women from universe age onwards And what that means would be different for everyone, right? So depending on what they come to and for, basically I guide them to believe in themselves again and get shit done. In a nutshell.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:40 Sounds good to me.

Kate Drummond 0:45:42 You know, some people come for career coaching, they're changing jobs, careers. The amount of young girls coming out of university who have studied for 3, 4 years and suddenly they come out and they're like, Well, I'm not who I was at 18.

Natalie Cassidy 0:45:55 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:45:56 You know, what do I do now? Some is just general whole life because we can't put ourselves into pockets. You know, even when we split up and do a bit of career coaching, a bit of health coaching, it all is one because it's holistic.

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:13 Everything comes together.

Kate Drummond 0:46:15 Yeah, everything links up. Yeah. Because you're not split into, you know, you're not, even though we wear multiple caps, you know, parent, worker, whatever it is.

Natalie Cassidy 0:46:26 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:46:27 We're still only one person. So it's about the main journey is remembering who you are, sort of underneath all the noise, you know, that wants, the needs, the opinions of others, like we've been speaking about, and really reconnecting back with you, learning your boundaries, learning what it is that you love. Like I started saying at the beginning about the amount of women the last few weeks that have been wanting to pivot You know, and like, something's not right, I need to do something else.

Kate Drummond 0:46:57 So do it. And do a side hustle, even if it's 10 minutes a week, you know, don't ignore it. There's something there. So yeah, I always find it a little bit hard to pigeonhole because it's so individual. It really does depend on the woman who's you know, who I'm walking alongside, really.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:21 But what's your sort of proudest moments? What— when you— is it kind of like, you know, having, having a bird in the garden that can't fly?

Kate Drummond 0:47:29 Yeah, absolutely.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:31 And then you sort of let, let that bird go and you're, you know, back to good health, should we say?

Kate Drummond 0:47:37 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:37 Is that how it feels when you're coaching people? Is that sort of—

Kate Drummond 0:47:40 Yeah, absolutely. When you've got the women who are coming in and really want to do the work, And, and I always say I split the women that come to me into 2 camps. The women that think they need a life coach because, oh, it'd be fun to have one.

Natalie Cassidy 0:47:58 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:48:00 Yeah. And it can be. Absolutely. But it's like sitting in an exam and not answering a question.

Kate Drummond 0:48:11 Right. You're not going to get a result. And then you get the women who are like really in the depths of change and who are really at that point of, I know what I need to do, but I don't know how to get there. They're the proudest moment ones because they're really putting in the work. And when I say work, it sounds awful.

Kate Drummond 0:48:35 It's not like I said, like loads of homework. But it's, it's really sort of stepping up to change. I did, um, as an example, I did a, a talk the other night in Canterbury, uh, and it was based on perimenopause, but obviously my spin on the positive. And was talking on a few things and the questions were going about, and I said about not drinking. So I gave up drinking 9 years ago.

Kate Drummond 0:49:01 I couldn't go on HRT. So giving up drinking for me, yeah, was a game changer. Now, as soon as I said that, the whole audience— it was only a small one, I think it was 20-odd people— went, yeah, never gonna do that.

Kate Drummond 0:49:23 So then you can't—

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:26 I love drinking.

Kate Drummond 0:49:27 I love drinking until it didn't like me in the end.

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:29 But I enjoy it or whatever. But I would never say, in my brain, I never ever think, oh no, I couldn't do it. Because you don't know, you don't know your future, you don't know what's gonna happen. So—

Kate Drummond 0:49:43 And that's the mindset that works in coaching, is just being open.

Natalie Cassidy 0:49:46 Yeah, you've gotta be. It's the same as people say, oh, are you gonna run another marathon? Or I don't go, oh no, no. You've— I, that again, I've got better at that. not make— I can't make a decision and know what the future holds. No, never going to do that again. It's very, you know, it's shallow. You're blocking things off. So I always just say, never say never. Don't know.

Kate Drummond 0:50:08 Yeah, absolutely.

Natalie Cassidy 0:50:09 Just don't know, do you?

Kate Drummond 0:50:11 You don't. You don't. And that is it. And I think that's what works at coaching. So yeah, there's been many, many, many moments where people have started businesses and never thought of it.

Kate Drummond 0:50:24 I had one particular client who tried retiring for about 5 years. And every time she wanted to retire, they persuaded her to stay. And we was working on this because this is about confidence, about self-belief, about courage, and releasing things that are no longer serving us, which is something that holds us back a lot. And when she finally did it, it was like your example of seeing a bird fly. Mm-hmm.

Kate Drummond 0:50:50 The liberation you could feel, the excitement for a life that was yet to be lived, you know? Yeah. Because for so long you're in, especially when you're in a corporate environment, it's, it's so mundane.

Natalie Cassidy 0:51:03 Oh, honestly, it's so interesting to hear that. Honestly, Kate, when I think back of each year getting my contract and signing for another year and signing for another year and, but just being really scared and not having the self-worth, not believing.

Natalie Cassidy 0:51:20 Mm-hmm. that you can do anything else, or just thinking, well, I just, I'm so known as doing that, you know, I may as well just stay here. It's easy. It's just easy. But actually, that feeling of nervousness, but excitement, and how freeing it is to leave that corporate world.

Natalie Cassidy 0:51:42 Because again, it's BBC, it's an institution, and it's been there a very, very long time, you know, and that building, and those people, and everything, it is what it is. And I love it with all my heart. It is what it is. But to step away from that and go, actually, I can, I can do other things here. And really, and also interesting things, things, campaigns or things that I'm passionate about.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:06 Yeah. You know. Yeah. The phone ban. But I'm really passionate about that because of my children and being able to talk to people, like-minded people about different things.

Natalie Cassidy 0:52:17 And actually being told over the years by certain people, that, oh, you, you know, if you leave here, you're not really gonna do much else. You're not, you know, it's, it's, yeah. And I feel very proud, very, very proud that—

Kate Drummond 0:52:33 Yeah. So you should, 'cause it's, it's a really hard thing to do. And you know, when, when we've done it, it feels, it doesn't feel easy, but you sort of sometimes get in your mind, well, why doesn't everyone do this? But that's— Yeah. Have stuck, that feeling of when you remember that repetitively signing the contracts because of that fear, that uncertainty. You know, so many women feel that, not just in jobs, but in relationships. You know, I can't leave now because, you know, well, it's that age, who's gonna want me?

Natalie Cassidy 0:53:14 Well, who else is gonna want me now? I may as well stay here.

Kate Drummond 0:53:19 Oh, you know, I say, you know what, if it's not a 10 out of 10 on the Joelle metre, it's a no-go.

Natalie Cassidy 0:53:25 And friendships as well.

Kate Drummond 0:53:27 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Natalie Cassidy 0:53:31 I can be a terrible friend in terms of getting hold of me or not getting back to people where my time is, you know, just split and busy and whatever. And yeah, absolutely. Now I've got— count my friends on my hands.

Kate Drummond 0:53:44 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:53:45 They know who I am. Oh yeah. It's so lovely. There's nothing false about it. It's just nice, isn't it?

Kate Drummond 0:53:51 And that, and that goes back to your, you know, the, the, the non-filter and stuff like that. Having friends that you don't have to be anyone else for.

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:01 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:54:01 They know you and they love you anyway. And do you know what? They're gonna call out your shit and they're gonna say how it is and you accept it because you know it's being given with love.

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:12 Yes.

Kate Drummond 0:54:13 I would take a handful of those over ones that I've got to work hard for any day of the week.

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:19 Or the ones that blow smoke up your ass.

Kate Drummond 0:54:22 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:22 And they aren't being truthful. Yeah, that's just as bad.

Kate Drummond 0:54:26 Yeah, because it's, it's, it's, um, you know, and again, and I truly believe this comes in line with this stage of life, where we balance out, that your energies become— and your intuition becomes a lot sharper. So, you know, you can walk into a room and everyone can have their backs to you, and you still get that feeling. You're like, whoa, someone's had an argument.

Natalie Cassidy 0:54:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can feel the energy, can't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kate Drummond 0:54:55 And I truly believe as we get older, that becomes more precise. So like you say, when you've got someone blowing smoke up your ass and it's, it's all a bit, you're just like, this is just, this is just wasting time. You're draining my energy and you're wasting time. You don't need to be doing it. I don't need to be receiving it.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:14 Time's too precious. I think time's too precious to have anyone around that just isn't my, my person. I don't think I've got time for it. You know, that's, that's the, that's the bottom line. Time is so precious.

Kate Drummond 0:55:28 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:28 We're all working hard. We've all, you know, whether we're parenting or looking after parents or pets or whatever we're doing, you know.

Kate Drummond 0:55:35 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:36 Just time is so precious that when you do have that spare time, if you like, for that, you know, that cup of tea, that walk, that glass of wine, to watch that movie, you wanna do it with people that are special.

Kate Drummond 0:55:49 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:50 And that's okay.

Kate Drummond 0:55:51 Yeah.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:51 You know.

Kate Drummond 0:55:52 Agree.

Natalie Cassidy 0:55:53 Well, Kate, honestly, I, I can't thank you enough for coming to have a chat. Oh, it's been a pleasure. I know, I just really, uh, yeah, I've, I've, I've thought, oh, you're so interesting. You just go, yeah, we could be friends. You look at me and go, yeah. That's really, really impressed me. And I think your story's amazing. And, um, I can't wait to read the book. We'll put the link down, as I say. And for anyone else out there who's enjoyed this chat today, @reinventwithkait. Follow Kate on Instagram, and it's some great stuff on there. Really, really lovely.

Kate Drummond 0:56:27 Thank you, Nat. So that's been lovely chatting.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:30 It's been really great. Um, perhaps we can get together again and maybe go into things a little bit more. Now I've got my Patreon, you know, I think we can do sort of 10— we could do 8 minutes.

Kate Drummond 0:56:41 We could.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:42 We could do some 8-minuters on, um, different things, and I think that'd be lovely for women and, yeah, really helpful. So Yeah, that would be great if you're up for it.

Kate Drummond 0:56:51 Yeah, definitely.

Natalie Cassidy 0:56:52 07788 20 19 19. Let us know what you thought of this, everybody. It's just nice to have these kind of thought-provoking conversations. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I hope you have too. I'm sorry if I sound like a sweaty, gargly, gurgly mess, but as you know, summer's not sitting well with me. Kate, thank you so, so much.

Kate Drummond 0:57:13 Thank you, ladies.

Natalie Cassidy 0:57:14 And I will be back Back next time. Thanks all, and I'll see you soon. Cheers!